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  #61  
Old 06-26-2008, 08:58 PM
Elephant Walk Elephant Walk is offline
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Originally Posted by banditone View Post
a) Someone needs to find my post on some random thread that had about 10 or so things that determine your "excellence" as a chapter.

b) Also, I need to know these lofty standards you are using and who the “peers” are for Ole Miss Sigma Nu. As far as “good” chapters, I’d like to know what SEC chapters of yours that are THAT much better then:

* South Carolina.
* University of Alabama.
* Auburn University.
* P.S. We get do-overs on campuses we were strong on then got booted off of: (expl: Florida, Georgia, Vandy, LSU)

Sidenote: Arkansas you say is not bottom tier, so I'd assume they aren't horrible. Well, they have only been back on campus for like 2 years maybe? So they weren't horrible for 5 to 10 years.
Sigma Nu at Ole Miss was the only one that came to mind.

I'm pretty sure Sigma Nu's not Old Row at Bama, though. Could be wrong, but thought Old Row was DKE, Phi Gam, KA, and SAE.

They've been on campus for longer than 2 years. I'd like to say it's been about 5 years or so now. They just got their house last year. In the beginning, they were highly questionable and weren't very selective. Especially when I first came on campus. Wooh boy. They've turned it around alot though.
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Overall, though, it's the bigness of the car that counts the most. Because when something bad happens in a really big car – accidentally speeding through the middle of a gang of unruly young people who have been taunting you in a drive-in restaurant, for instance – it happens very far away – way out at the end of your fenders. It's like a civil war in Africa; you know, it doesn't really concern you too much. - P.J. O'Rourke
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  #62  
Old 06-26-2008, 10:53 PM
sarahsmilehawk sarahsmilehawk is offline
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I go to KU. Formal recruitment was this past weekend, but here's my take in case anyone still wants it.

Yes, anyone who has a house has a pretty big/nice one. Many of the houses are really impressive.

My house had a party with Sigma Nu last semester and a few of them subsequently made appearances at our formal. Good group of guys, and I see this chapter becoming strong once they get their numbers up. Also one of the CLEANEST fraternity houses I've been in!

My understanding is that Delta Tau Delta is taking their house back this year. TKE had been renting it from the Delts, but they got their numbers up enough to support a house. Not sure what's happening to TKE...

I'm pretty confident that Lambda Chi Alpha doesn't haze-- really. Upperclassmen regularly participate in BADD duty and they have "associate members" instead of pledges. But I'm a girl, so obviously I can't be 100% certain. I do, however, know of some other houses that definitely haze (at least in my definition). Again, that's to the best of my knowledge.

Beta Theta Pi routinely has the highest gpa, usually by a pretty large margin.

I have a lot more comments, but most of them would be unfair speculation, so I'll shut up.
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  #63  
Old 06-26-2008, 11:57 PM
banditone banditone is offline
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Originally Posted by Elephant Walk View Post
I'm pretty sure Sigma Nu's not Old Row at Bama, though. Could be wrong, but thought Old Row was DKE, Phi Gam, KA, and SAE.
FYI, you're wrong. Old Row at Bama: KA, SAE, DKE, Sigma Nu, Phi Gam, and I think Phi Delt (could be wrong on Phi Delt).

Not giving you the tiers, just the Old Row fraternities.
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  #64  
Old 06-26-2008, 11:59 PM
banditone banditone is offline
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Originally Posted by sarahsmilehawk View Post
My house had a party with Sigma Nu last semester and a few of them subsequently made appearances at our formal. Good group of guys, and I see this chapter becoming strong once they get their numbers up. Also one of the CLEANEST fraternity houses I've been in!
Really cool to have input from someone that is on campus at the time. That is a big change from when I visited the chapter house there. It was pretty trashed out; but could have been the result of a recent party and not the norm.
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  #65  
Old 06-27-2008, 01:20 AM
BigRedBeta BigRedBeta is offline
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I haven't read most of this thread but there was one line from someone about their founders not having a clue about community service hours or something like that . With that in mind, I'll throw out one thought about national awards...

If the awards for your organization's top chapter awards aren't based on the principles of your organization as set forth by your founders, then you are rewarding chapters for the wrong things.
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  #66  
Old 06-27-2008, 11:42 AM
srmom srmom is offline
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I go to KU. Formal recruitment was this past weekend
Sarah, formal recruitment was this past weekend? Am I reading that right?

Just curious, because the middle of June seems an odd time for formal recruitment.

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I have a lot more comments, but most of them would be unfair speculation, so I'll shut up
Probably prudent and definitely panhellenic!
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  #67  
Old 06-27-2008, 11:47 AM
PhiGam PhiGam is offline
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Originally Posted by banditone View Post
FYI, you're wrong. Old Row at Bama: KA, SAE, DKE, Sigma Nu, Phi Gam, and I think Phi Delt (could be wrong on Phi Delt).

Not giving you the tiers, just the Old Row fraternities.
The Phi Gam house is in between Beta and EN on Old Row at Bama
DKE, SAE, and KA are the other three.
EN and Beta aren't top tier there even though they're old row.

Last edited by PhiGam; 06-27-2008 at 12:26 PM.
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  #68  
Old 06-27-2008, 11:58 AM
Elephant Walk Elephant Walk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banditone View Post
FYI, you're wrong. Old Row at Bama: KA, SAE, DKE, Sigma Nu, Phi Gam, and I think Phi Delt (could be wrong on Phi Delt).

Not giving you the tiers, just the Old Row fraternities.
good call. then i am definitely wrong.

Unless you're a certain two or three fraternities, every major national fraternity has two or three strong houses throughout the South.
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Overall, though, it's the bigness of the car that counts the most. Because when something bad happens in a really big car – accidentally speeding through the middle of a gang of unruly young people who have been taunting you in a drive-in restaurant, for instance – it happens very far away – way out at the end of your fenders. It's like a civil war in Africa; you know, it doesn't really concern you too much. - P.J. O'Rourke
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  #69  
Old 06-27-2008, 12:19 PM
Kedzman Kedzman is offline
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Originally Posted by srmom View Post
kedzman, as a mom of boys, I have to say that this post isn't really going to "market" your fraternity to 18 year old boys. Maybe the organization that you are espousing would be better suited to mature adult men who are already paying bills and taking on adult responsibilities.

You say that Greeks join for the wrong reasons: that they shouldn't want to party, that they should be virtuous and noble, that they should strive for things that require a lot of hard work, dedication, delayed gratification, discipline, accountability & more. That sounds alot like my husband now, at 50, but certainly not the kid he was when he was back in college, and certainly not my own college age sons. Those types of ideals come through living, and 18 year olds haven't done much of that yet.

You also throw assertions out about these guys' characters that you really don't know anything about: that they are common, that they laugh at hard work and embrace folly, etc. Well, maybe they are 4.0 students. Maybe they are paying their fraternity dues from summer jobs. I don't know, and neither do you. They also will be much different in 20 years. Aren't we all different than we were when we were in college? I know I am

Anyway, it may be just me, but your posts really rub me the wrong way.

I have to compliment you on such a polite, gracious post. You make a lot of good points and I agree with you. That being said, some 18-19 year old students are mature beyond their years. A lot of this his to do with the way their parents raised them and/or how tightly they hold onto their faith and live it out in their daily lives.

Our organization tends to attract young men who are a little more mature for their age than your typical 18 year old. It's hard to explain it, but you can feel the difference when you walk into a room with 50 Sigma Nu's from NIU vs. the other fraternities. As an alumnus, I've been to football tailgate parties and other large group events where fraternities are hanging out in packs. Many of the other fraternities make a wild spectacle of themselves can appear to be real bafoons. That is attractive to an 18 year old that wants to be a wild ass. The SN crowd tends to be a cut above in their social demeanor. They still have a great time and attract the top ladies - they just keep a cooler head about them.

I guess my point is, while most 18 year old boys are not going to be attracted to my post - that's OK. The 10% of the 18 year olds that are mature beyond their years and looking for something a little more than just a social fraternity experience is going to really be attracted to Sigma Nu. In an environment where everyone is throwing parties and recruiting to a social scene, we tend to take things to the next level to differentiate ourselves. There is a market for it. We attract leaders. We develop leaders. We have more of our members in positions of leadership on campus and in the community than any other fraternity. We have a 21 year old City Alderman and a 19 year old County Board Member. Two of the last 3 student government presidents have been Sigma Nus. They are #1 or #2 in GPA each of the last 4 semesters. On the social scene, on a campus with 15 fraternities and only 8 sororities, SN consistently pairs with the top 4-5 sororities.

Thanks again for the gracious post. You are more careful and considerate than I in the way you express yourself. I tend to come across a bit abrupt and sometimes abrassive in my text posts. I'm much better in person!
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  #70  
Old 06-27-2008, 12:28 PM
banditone banditone is offline
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Originally Posted by PhiGam View Post
The Phi Gam house is in between Beta and EN on Old Row at Bama
DKE, SAE, and KA are the other three.
EN and Beta aren't top tier there even though they're old row.
Agreed. Sigma Nu is solid mid to upper mid. I'm not sure about Beta at all.
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  #71  
Old 06-27-2008, 12:38 PM
srmom srmom is offline
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Thanks again for the gracious post. You are more careful and considerate than I in the way you express yourself. I tend to come across a bit abrupt and sometimes abrassive in my text posts. I'm much better in person!
Okay, we can be e-friends haha

Thanks for your response. It sounds like your group of guys is wonderful, and I am so glad for you that you have been a part of it! Maybe they're just more mature and staid than most 18 year olds I know.

Not to say that the 18 year olds I know and have known arent wonderful, they just are/were looking for the "social" type fraternity that are more prevalent at the colleges that I have visited and the one I attended.

I feel that it is unfair to make negative blanket statements about groups in which you are not a part of. While some groups may act, in your opinion, like a**es at a tailgate, they may, in fact have a deep and lasting brotherhood that is just not apparant to you and your brothers. Just as you wouldn't want any part of them and their group, they wouldn't want to be a part of yours - doesn't make them evil monsters, just different.

I will say that the events where parents are included at my son's fraternity, the boys don't act like bafoons or make spectacles of themselves. They, in fact, have been nothing but polite and respectful. But, that's with the adults present - I don't know what they're like when we're not there .
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  #72  
Old 06-27-2008, 12:42 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by srmom View Post
I feel that it is unfair to make negative blanket statements about groups in which you are not a part of. While some groups may act, in your opinion, like a**es at a tailgate, they may, in fact have a deep and lasting brotherhood that is just not apparant to you and your brothers. Just as you wouldn't want any part of them and their group, they wouldn't want to be a part of yours - doesn't make them evil monsters, just different.
I <3 srmom.

It's fine to be proud of the fact that you do something differently, but it's not fine to say everyone else sucks because they aren't you. (Unless it's a rush shirt and you're being fairly jokey about it.)
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  #73  
Old 06-27-2008, 12:49 PM
Kedzman Kedzman is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Brother, I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree 100%.

Back a few years ago, when I was just starting off in my own colony's existence, a long time alumnus who also happens to be very influential within our organization introduced me to the 'iron triangle,' or 3 B's of recruiting -- that being babes, bucks, and booze (not necessarily in that order). These things are key to how many very successful organizations operate today.

Later on, I attended our College of Chapters in 2001 (the first return to Lexington). There, HQ introduced the Values Based Recruitment program. I think that's what you're alluding to. VBR is great in that it involves somewhat of a paradigm shift in recruiting. No more do they want us to go after the guys who are going through Rush only to have a good time -- we want the guys who are after what we're after -- Brotherhood, Support and Friendship. We talk up things like our core values, the reason we were founded, etc.

I still think that the key to success lies somewhere between the old and the new. I think values based recruiting is wonderful, but at the same time, we shouldn't forget the social aspect of the organization, the old 3 B's. Both things are important. I'm not going to pretend to have some sort of cohesive philosophy about recruitment and what works. It never really was my forté. I just think that the truth is somewhere in between the old ways and the new way.. and I'll just leave it at that.

(my opinions are my own, and I do not speak for any other person or entity here)

Brother,

I am disappointed to see you perpetuating "the Iron Triangle" or the "3-B's" of recruitment. Just because that alumnus is influential doesn't mean he is right. We are called to a higher standard than that.

I've been involved in Greek life since 1987 and seen a lot. The 1980's were indeed "the big '80's" where fraternities surged in numbers, in part, due to the popularity of movies like Animal House (1977) and others to come. Until about 1986 or so, there were no rules. Fraternity parties were wide open. As a result, there were many alcohol related deaths, property damage to our historic homes and injuries - and of course, law suits. Risk management rules imposed by National organizations were the result of unchecked liability. Law suits financially threatened the existence of our National organizations.

Risk management heated up in the 1990's. Huge numbers of chapters around the nation were shut down. Other chapter went by way of the dinosaur and were victims of their own actions. The mid to late 1990's on my campus were devastating. At our chapter, for example, I knew it was game over when I saw our "good kids" leaving and the knuckleheads staying. Parties and drugs were increasing. Chapter involvement, GPA and recruitment numbers were decreasing. That was the beginning of the end. You cannot recruit quality TO the organization if you do not have quality IN the organization. Alumni stepped in a quitely pulled the charter. Massive drug busts happened at Delta Upsilon and Sigma Chi in 1999 - two of our historically best chapters. There was a strong "anti-establishment" attitude in the mid to late 1990's influenced by the "grunge" culture with young people - kind of similar to the decline of Greek life in the early to mid 1970's.

In 2005 and beyond, it seems many organizations are becoming a lot more responsible. New groups like ours are starting out on the right foot. Other organizations are trying hard to turn the tide of the culture because of the risk and poor results they have gotten.

I'll challenge you to make a slight paradigm shift. Instead of leading with Beer, Babes and Bucks - try leading with all of the attributes a top fraternity offers by way of leadership development and personal growth. What will happen is the best of the best will be attracted to you. From that, the bucks will come from higher manpower. The Babes will beat a path to your door because quality women desire to be with quality men. The Beer is simply a constant on a college campus and within fraternity culture. Everyone knows it's there. You don't need to flaunt it or promote it. Pushing parties only hurts you - it cannot help you. What I mean is, a party-centric recruitment message can scare away top students who become concerned that they will not be able to be high-achievers if the culture is too party oriented. Conversely, the party-only guys will find a home at your fraternity and they may bring little else to your chapter and put you at risk.

Again, if you lead with personal development, the bucks and babes will follow. The beer will always be there.
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  #74  
Old 06-27-2008, 01:01 PM
Elephant Walk Elephant Walk is offline
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God, y'alls nationals are just as miserable as ours.

Here's a few gems:
Quote:
What I mean is, a party-centric recruitment message can scare away top students who become concerned that they will not be able to be high-achievers if the culture is too party oriented. Conversely, the party-only guys will find a home at your fraternity and they may bring little else to your chapter and put you at risk.
You're too focused on "partying", to be honest. You can have a helluva social life with a party every night and no one would consider it a "party-centric rush message" (I refuse to call it recruitment, that's more bullshit nationals has stacked on us). The best chapters are up to their ears in drugs and alcohol, but that doesn't mean you can't get stuff done. It's just a small bit of the bigger picture.

Quote:
I'll challenge you to make a slight paradigm shift. Instead of leading with Beer, Babes and Bucks - try leading with all of the attributes a top fraternity offers by way of leadership development and personal growth. What will happen is the best of the best will be attracted to you. From that, the bucks will come from higher manpower.
Hahahahaha. Where do I start?

Leadership development? We recruit guys who are already leaders and want to be leaders on campus. If you mean better leaders? Sure, being a part of a fraternity forces you to do that. Structured and intelligent hazing creates personal growth in the fraternity. Without focusing on "leadership development and personal growth" we're a very strong fraternity. We pull the strongest guys because being in a top house pulls top leaders, not top partiers. Furthermore, the bucks have been there for ages and will continue to be there without doing a "paradigm shift". Pulling in the top leaders means pulling in the top bucks generally (hefty generalization I'm guilty of, but I think for the most part it's true).

Quote:
The history of bad things
We well know the history of fraternities. Thanks for updating us nationalsman. We were taught plenty of that during pledgeship. Gah.
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Overall, though, it's the bigness of the car that counts the most. Because when something bad happens in a really big car – accidentally speeding through the middle of a gang of unruly young people who have been taunting you in a drive-in restaurant, for instance – it happens very far away – way out at the end of your fenders. It's like a civil war in Africa; you know, it doesn't really concern you too much. - P.J. O'Rourke

Last edited by Elephant Walk; 06-27-2008 at 01:15 PM.
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  #75  
Old 06-27-2008, 01:04 PM
EE-BO EE-BO is offline
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FYI- Kevin is a highly educated contributing member to society and a credit to Sigma Nu. Rest assured your "disappointment" in him is very poorly placed, and alumni like us tend to get pissed off very quickly when someone takes all of our work and financial contributions to a chapter or to Greek Life in general and then says we are bad guys because we did not take some leadership course or because we refuse to tow some party line and never say what we think.

The rest speaks for itself. You are taking a few incidents and blowing it up into the need for a revolutionary vision that you think will magically attract a new kind of rushee- which implies you have disdain for all who have come before.

You are that upper middle-class white guy who thinks he can go be a teacher in an inner city school and overnight inspire and change the lives of your students- which of course requires you assume they are so unable to think for themselves that only you can help them. (And there are many more like you- I am not saying you are just out there on your own.)

I think your general assessment of Risk Management evolution over the past 20 years is largely correct, but by acting like you have discovered some magic inspiration- you really insult everyone around you.

Consider too how alumni might feel about this kind of "Ivory Tower" approach. I can tell you that it pisses a lot of them off- and they are the ones whose donations really fund nationals and chapter houses.

Leadership development has its place- but the idea that it is some magic solution to a problem that is largely mischaracterized as a flaw in fraternities in general is great leap.
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