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  #31  
Old 06-25-2008, 06:54 PM
PhiGam PhiGam is offline
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Originally Posted by OTW View Post
Wow, this thread sure got derailed.
I actually thought FSUFiji tied it together quite nicely.
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  #32  
Old 06-25-2008, 07:23 PM
Kedzman Kedzman is offline
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FSUfiji, crackerbarrel, elephant walk & Phigam -

You are all clearly in the same line of thinking. I am in a different camp. We'll just have to disagree on this one.

I am disappointed in your thinking because it's too easy and common. Most Greeks join for a lot of the wrong reasons - they just wanna party. They miss the point that all of our national organizations were founded 100+ years ago for virtuous and nobel reasons. Somewhere along the way, the culture changed, values changed and so did fraternities.

National organizations offer their top awards to high-achieving chapters that live out their founding principles. This takes a lot of hard work, dedication, delayed gratification, discipline, accountability & more. The fact that you don't value such awards or the organizations who earn them is an indictment on your character.

Throwing big parties and breaking the rules isn't unique or difficult. Rather, it is common and easy. Thus, you are members of common, lethargic organizations. You are like dinosaurs marching toward extinction and you don't even realize it. You laugh at hard work and embrace folly.

I guess we simply have different values.
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  #33  
Old 06-25-2008, 07:25 PM
Kedzman Kedzman is offline
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Originally Posted by RU OX Alum View Post
winning awards from your inter/nationals doesn't mean anything, positive or negative
I'll wager Lee Iacoca would find value in winning National awards...
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  #34  
Old 06-25-2008, 07:35 PM
CrackerBarrel CrackerBarrel is offline
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Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
Throwing big parties and breaking the rules isn't unique or difficult. Rather, it is common and easy. Thus, you are members of common, lethargic organizations. You are like dinosaurs marching toward extinction and you don't even realize it. You laugh at hard work and embrace folly.
No, we aren't. Even if you threw out the parties on our side and awards on yours, I would challenge that our chapters are still better than the others. The ideals which my fraternity was founded on weren't to include everyone or to make sure everyone felt welcome. It was to provide those with a common purpose a chance to have a brotherhood. You may argue that the "traditional" chapters are elitist and have lost sight of their purpose, but I think that's entirely untrue. Yes, we probably are somewhat elitist and very selective. So were our founders. No fraternity that I know of was founded and then went out to try to recruit as many men as possible. The purpose was to unite those who had a common purpose, and that role is best filled by the elite (or elitist, however you see it) chapters. When more value is placed upon how many members you can get, or how many philanthropies you won (again, no where does my fraternity's history mention community service hours) or how you do at intramurals or any of these other qualities that nationals gives awards for, I'm pretty sure it's your houses who have lost sight of the fraternity's purpose. The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it. You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing. You have a tighter brotherhood by having very strict standards before a bid is given, nationals thinks you're being discriminatory. National Fraternities have tried too much to keep up with the "changing times" and it's them that lost track of what a fraternity is.

Last edited by CrackerBarrel; 06-25-2008 at 07:38 PM.
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  #35  
Old 06-25-2008, 08:08 PM
nate2512 nate2512 is offline
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Damn I go to the office, come back, and I'm already too late.
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  #36  
Old 06-25-2008, 08:09 PM
nate2512 nate2512 is offline
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Because everyone aspiring to be a true Southern Fratty Gentleman longs for this:

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  #37  
Old 06-25-2008, 08:31 PM
PhiGam PhiGam is offline
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Because everyone aspiring to be a true Southern Fratty Gentleman longs for this:

HAHAHAHA
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  #38  
Old 06-25-2008, 08:32 PM
PhiGam PhiGam is offline
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Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel View Post
No, we aren't. Even if you threw out the parties on our side and awards on yours, I would challenge that our chapters are still better than the others. The ideals which my fraternity was founded on weren't to include everyone or to make sure everyone felt welcome. It was to provide those with a common purpose a chance to have a brotherhood. You may argue that the "traditional" chapters are elitist and have lost sight of their purpose, but I think that's entirely untrue. Yes, we probably are somewhat elitist and very selective. So were our founders. No fraternity that I know of was founded and then went out to try to recruit as many men as possible. The purpose was to unite those who had a common purpose, and that role is best filled by the elite (or elitist, however you see it) chapters. When more value is placed upon how many members you can get, or how many philanthropies you won (again, no where does my fraternity's history mention community service hours) or how you do at intramurals or any of these other qualities that nationals gives awards for, I'm pretty sure it's your houses who have lost sight of the fraternity's purpose. The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it. You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing. You have a tighter brotherhood by having very strict standards before a bid is given, nationals thinks you're being discriminatory. National Fraternities have tried too much to keep up with the "changing times" and it's them that lost track of what a fraternity is.
*standing ovation*
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  #39  
Old 06-25-2008, 08:53 PM
FSUfiji FSUfiji is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel View Post
No, we aren't. Even if you threw out the parties on our side and awards on yours, I would challenge that our chapters are still better than the others. The ideals which my fraternity was founded on weren't to include everyone or to make sure everyone felt welcome. It was to provide those with a common purpose a chance to have a brotherhood. You may argue that the "traditional" chapters are elitist and have lost sight of their purpose, but I think that's entirely untrue. Yes, we probably are somewhat elitist and very selective. So were our founders. No fraternity that I know of was founded and then went out to try to recruit as many men as possible. The purpose was to unite those who had a common purpose, and that role is best filled by the elite (or elitist, however you see it) chapters. When more value is placed upon how many members you can get, or how many philanthropies you won (again, no where does my fraternity's history mention community service hours) or how you do at intramurals or any of these other qualities that nationals gives awards for, I'm pretty sure it's your houses who have lost sight of the fraternity's purpose. The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it. You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing. You have a tighter brotherhood by having very strict standards before a bid is given, nationals thinks you're being discriminatory. National Fraternities have tried too much to keep up with the "changing times" and it's them that lost track of what a fraternity is.
damn some one give CB a national award or a trophy for this awesome ass post! couldnt have said it better **thumbs up**
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  #40  
Old 06-25-2008, 09:14 PM
Kedzman Kedzman is offline
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The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.


You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing.

The primary problem isn't that pledges are driving your drunk, underaged brothers around. The problem begins with the drunk underaged brothers. The fact that there are pledges driving them around is secondary, not primary. Trying to cover up risk management issues with a "pledge driving program" doesn't eliminate the risk management issue.

Poking holes in your logic is so easy it's silly. For some reason, you think you are the wise one - perhaps because you have some equally naive followers supporting the decades of bad traditions you have bought into.
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  #41  
Old 06-25-2008, 09:35 PM
CrackerBarrel CrackerBarrel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.


You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing.

The primary problem isn't that pledges are driving your drunk, underaged brothers around. The problem begins with the drunk underaged brothers. The fact that there are pledges driving them around is secondary, not primary. Trying to cover up risk management issues with a "pledge driving program" doesn't eliminate the risk management issue.

Poking holes in your logic is so easy it's silly. For some reason, you think you are the wise one - perhaps because you have some equally naive followers supporting the decades of bad traditions you have bought into.
I took a class through my school that had leadership development as a big portion of it. I came out without being remotely close to anyone in my class (except for one classmate who was my pledge brother) and without having learned a whole lot of leadership.

When I say hazing I don't mean getting the s**t kicked out of you or garbage dumped on you, we agree, that's pointless. But I am of the opinion that having extremely challenging and stressful activities that the pledge class has to go through as a group brings them together and makes leaders. And getting yelled at/screamed at/punished when you screw up encourages you to do better. There's another group that builds leaders the same way and has seemed to do pretty well with it too - the military. I'm sorry if you're offended that I think it's foolish to replace what has worked for centuries to build leaders with a series of books and workshops and kindness.

But clearly we'll never agree, so I'm happy I don't go to NIU and my nationals stay out of my house's way, you clearly feel the opposite, ok.
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  #42  
Old 06-25-2008, 09:38 PM
Elephant Walk Elephant Walk is offline
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Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.
I didn't realize having a pledge drive so that he saves the life of other brothers was "humiliation." That's the only hazing CB mentions.

Good chapters don't need "leadership programs", they attract leaders themselves. These leaders fine tune their leadership capabilities within the chapters without needing some politically correct bullshit from nationals. We were forced by nationals as pledges (hazing, I guess) to attend a leadership workshop. The head of the meeting showed up and said "...there's not much diversity here." Straight from the asses mouth in his showing of disapproval. I looked around....buncha guys from Texas, some from all walks of life in Arkansas. Looked pretty diverse to me.

Nationals is a waste of money, good for nothing more than insurance.
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Overall, though, it's the bigness of the car that counts the most. Because when something bad happens in a really big car accidentally speeding through the middle of a gang of unruly young people who have been taunting you in a drive-in restaurant, for instance it happens very far away way out at the end of your fenders. It's like a civil war in Africa; you know, it doesn't really concern you too much. - P.J. O'Rourke
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  #43  
Old 06-25-2008, 09:39 PM
nate2512 nate2512 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.


You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing.

The primary problem isn't that pledges are driving your drunk, underaged brothers around. The problem begins with the drunk underaged brothers. The fact that there are pledges driving them around is secondary, not primary. Trying to cover up risk management issues with a "pledge driving program" doesn't eliminate the risk management issue.

Poking holes in your logic is so easy it's silly. For some reason, you think you are the wise one - perhaps because you have some equally naive followers supporting the decades of bad traditions you have bought into.
So are you to say that you never drank underage. Are you to say that no Sigma Nu drinks underage? Which would you rather, a pledge driving around a guy, or a guy driving around drunk? We have risk management because there is always risk, you can't eliminate it, that's why we have such programs to reduce it.

Leadership skills can't be taught on paper. The only way to truly teach someone to lead, is put him through stresses that make him a better, more well-rounded gentleman. Gentleman aren't made leaders, they are born leaders, and those born to lead, need to find something to hone those leadership skills, they join great chapters of great fraternities.
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Last edited by nate2512; 06-25-2008 at 09:41 PM.
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  #44  
Old 06-25-2008, 09:42 PM
nate2512 nate2512 is offline
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Originally Posted by Elephant Walk View Post
I didn't realize having a pledge drive so that he saves the life of other brothers was "humiliation." That's the only hazing CB mentions.

Good chapters don't need "leadership programs", they attract leaders themselves. These leaders fine tune their leadership capabilities within the chapters without needing some politically correct bullshit from nationals. We were forced by nationals as pledges (hazing, I guess) to attend a leadership workshop. The head of the meeting showed up and said "...there's not much diversity here." Straight from the asses mouth in his showing of disapproval. I looked around....buncha guys from Texas, some from all walks of life in Arkansas. Looked pretty diverse to me.

Nationals is a waste of money, good for nothing more than insurance.
I hate that BS, why would I join a group of people I have nothing in common with?
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  #45  
Old 06-26-2008, 12:25 PM
srmom srmom is offline
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You are all clearly in the same line of thinking. I am in a different camp. We'll just have to disagree on this one.

I am disappointed in your thinking because it's too easy and common. Most Greeks join for a lot of the wrong reasons - they just wanna party. They miss the point that all of our national organizations were founded 100+ years ago for virtuous and nobel reasons. Somewhere along the way, the culture changed, values changed and so did fraternities.

National organizations offer their top awards to high-achieving chapters that live out their founding principles. This takes a lot of hard work, dedication, delayed gratification, discipline, accountability & more. The fact that you don't value such awards or the organizations who earn them is an indictment on your character.

Throwing big parties and breaking the rules isn't unique or difficult. Rather, it is common and easy. Thus, you are members of common, lethargic organizations. You are like dinosaurs marching toward extinction and you don't even realize it. You laugh at hard work and embrace folly.

I guess we simply have different values.
kedzman, as a mom of boys, I have to say that this post isn't really going to "market" your fraternity to 18 year old boys. Maybe the organization that you are espousing would be better suited to mature adult men who are already paying bills and taking on adult responsibilities.

You say that Greeks join for the wrong reasons: that they shouldn't want to party, that they should be virtuous and noble, that they should strive for things that require a lot of hard work, dedication, delayed gratification, discipline, accountability & more. That sounds alot like my husband now, at 50, but certainly not the kid he was when he was back in college, and certainly not my own college age sons. Those types of ideals come through living, and 18 year olds haven't done much of that yet.

You also throw assertions out about these guys' characters that you really don't know anything about: that they are common, that they laugh at hard work and embrace folly, etc. Well, maybe they are 4.0 students. Maybe they are paying their fraternity dues from summer jobs. I don't know, and neither do you. They also will be much different in 20 years. Aren't we all different than we were when we were in college? I know I am

Anyway, it may be just me, but your posts really rub me the wrong way.

Last edited by srmom; 06-26-2008 at 01:44 PM.
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