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  #1  
Old 10-11-2006, 01:13 AM
**DU** **DU** is offline
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Do most guys actually receive bids?

Do most of the guys who rush receive at least one bid from any fraternity? What is the rate of guys who don't receive any bids at all? What are the qualities of guys who don't receive any bids? I know it changes from school to school but still.
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  #2  
Old 10-11-2006, 07:59 AM
Senusret I Senusret I is offline
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I just heard this story on yesterday and thought it would be worth repeating.

The cousin of someone I just met graduated from my alma mater, where there are only two NIC orgs. The cousin was a double legacy of one of the fraternities. He really wanted to be part of the organization and studied the chapter's website from beginning to end. He even memorized names and faces.

When the chapter had an open house or something like that, he went up to the members and said "Hi my name is _____. You must be John Smith, Class of 2009."

And so on....and so on.

He wasn't offered a bid. He also didn't pursue membership in any other fraternity.

The cousin of this guy was pretty sure that the members of the chapter were freaked out by this guy and put off by the fact that he researched them on a personal level, but did nothing to actually befriend them before hand.

Moral: Be yourself and don't stalk. I am sure this has led to bidless men in many more places.
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  #3  
Old 10-11-2006, 03:08 PM
Tom Earp Tom Earp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by **DU** View Post
Do most of the guys who rush receive at least one bid from any fraternity? What is the rate of guys who don't receive any bids at all? What are the qualities of guys who don't receive any bids? I know it changes from school to school but still.
Very wide in scope of question and very hard to answer.


But as
Senusret I said, it is not always true that a legacy gets in.

I do not know of anyone who tracks the figures that you are looking for in NIC Groups.

As was said, one should be yourself and do not act to over powering. Most Organizations want people who will fit with them and vise versa.

On the flip side, there have been marginal recruits who have become a major player in their organization.

One just never knows.
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  #4  
Old 10-11-2006, 03:28 PM
TSteven TSteven is offline
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Originally Posted by **DU** View Post
Do most of the guys who rush receive at least one bid from any fraternity?
It really depends on both the structure of the rush and the campus culture. For example, if the nature of fraternity rush is a series of open parties, then there may be more guys attending rush events that are only there for the free food etc. These guys most likely won't receive a bid.

Quote:
What is the rate of guys who don't receive any bids at all?
Like Tom said, few (if any?) IFCs keep track of the number of bids extend. Even if the IFC does keep track, statistically it can be hard to use the date in a reliable way. Especially when guys are eligible for more than one bid. For example, there could be three guys. Adam receives two bids, Ben receives one bid, and Carl received zero bids. The total number of bids issued were three. And when you divide the number of bids extended (3) by the number of guys going through rush (3), then statistically, it comes out to 1 bid per man. Yet the reality is that one man did not receive any bids.

If reported, it might end up something like this.

Number of men rushing = 3
Bids extended = 3
Bids accepted = 2

From this, you can not tell if all three men rushing received a bid. Also, the percentage of men receiving at least one bid, and accepting one, is off. The reality with this example is that 100% of the men who received a bid, accepted a bid.

My point is this is why few IFCs keep track. The numbers don't really mean much unless they are very detailed. And bottom line, few IFCs - or campuses - need (require) this type of information.

Quote:
What are the qualities of guys who don't receive any bids? I know it changes from school to school but still.
The simple answer is that guys that are not worthy (a good fit), do not receive bids.

However, for the sake of discussion, let us rephrase the question to the following. Why would a guy who *is* a good fit, not receive any bids? I would simply answer that he is an unknown to the chapter. And perhaps, the chapter is unknown to him. Why? Maybe he is shy. Maybe he doesn't sign up for formal. Maybe he is from a small town and no one knows him on campus yet. And worse, a chapter may be too lazy to get to know the guy.

So from the chapter's perspective, it can behoove them to get to know as many quality guys as they can. Do some work. And from the rushee's perspective, it behooves him to make himself known - in a positive way. Get out and meet the fraternities.

Last edited by TSteven; 10-11-2006 at 03:43 PM. Reason: grammar
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  #5  
Old 10-13-2006, 09:00 AM
LaneSig LaneSig is offline
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Originally Posted by TSteven View Post

However, for the sake of discussion, let us rephrase the question to the following. Why would a guy who *is* a good fit, not receive any bids? I would simply answer that he is an unknown to the chapter. And perhaps, the chapter is unknown to him. Why? Maybe he is shy. Maybe he doesn't sign up for formal. Maybe he is from a small town and no one knows him on campus yet. And worse, a chapter may be too lazy to get to know the guy.

So from the chapter's perspective, it can behoove them to get to know as many quality guys as they can. Do some work. And from the rushee's perspective, it behooves him to make himself known - in a positive way. Get out and meet the fraternities.

TSteven -

I totally agree with the 'worse' scenerio. Too many times the attitude of a chapter is "Why aren't these guys coming to see us?", when they should be thinking "We need to get out and find more guys." Many chapters seem to wait for the guys to come to them instead of making an effort to go find the guys.
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  #6  
Old 10-13-2006, 12:39 PM
shinerbock shinerbock is offline
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In my fraternity, we looked more people we could be good friends with than "brothers"...I mean, we like guys who are excited about pledgeship and whatnot, but it comes down to if the guy is cool (can he hang out, drink some beer, talk about sports, politics, whatever), would he be a good friend/brother (take care of the house, step up and take responsibility, is he dependable) and other things, like how he presents himself, whether he's good with girls, etc...Basically, we look for people who instantly get along with the brothers, fit right in, etc.
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  #7  
Old 10-13-2006, 01:27 PM
TSteven TSteven is offline
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Originally Posted by shinerbock View Post
In my fraternity, we looked more people we could be good friends with than "brothers"...I mean, we like guys who are excited about pledgeship and whatnot, but it comes down to if the guy is cool (can he hang out, drink some beer, talk about sports, politics, whatever), would he be a good friend/brother (take care of the house, step up and take responsibility, is he dependable) and other things, like how he presents himself, whether he's good with girls, etc...Basically, we look for people who instantly get along with the brothers, fit right in, etc.
I agree. To me, this kind of sums up what I mean by a good fit.

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The simple answer is that guys that are not worthy (a good fit), do not receive bids.
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  #8  
Old 10-13-2006, 01:38 PM
TSteven TSteven is offline
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Originally Posted by LaneSig View Post
TSteven -

I totally agree with the 'worse' scenerio. Too many times the attitude of a chapter is "Why aren't these guys coming to see us?", when they should be thinking "We need to get out and find more guys." Many chapters seem to wait for the guys to come to them instead of making an effort to go find the guys.
It's easy to assume that because they don't come to a rush party that they would not fit in. Yet many "good fits" are simply not known cause they don't sign up or come to a rush event.

They may be friends of current pledges, members, alumni - even sororities. Incoming freshmen and transfers (upperclassmen) that don't really know much about fraternities and "how to" rush. Athletes who may not be able to rush during formal (be it summer, fall or spring) and may need to be recruited (rushed) informally or during the off season.

Any of these guys may be great fits - i.e. friends, cool, and can hang with his brothers. And be a great assist to the chapter and fraternity as a whole.
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  #9  
Old 10-14-2006, 11:04 PM
Kevin Kevin is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinerbock View Post
In my fraternity, we looked more people we could be good friends with than "brothers"...I mean, we like guys who are excited about pledgeship and whatnot, but it comes down to if the guy is cool (can he hang out, drink some beer, talk about sports, politics, whatever), would he be a good friend/brother (take care of the house, step up and take responsibility, is he dependable) and other things, like how he presents himself, whether he's good with girls, etc...Basically, we look for people who instantly get along with the brothers, fit right in, etc.
I think that's how it generally works in most places.

There are also a few chapters that bid just about anyone or anything out there, then try to weed people out during pledgeship.
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  #10  
Old 10-18-2006, 12:29 PM
RU OX Alum RU OX Alum is offline
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To answer the question, at my alma mater when I was there, no. The vast majority went bidless. Like, way more than was acceptable when all the IFC groups had the same complaint that no one was rushing...there were 150 dudes that rushed that semester, less than 30 recieved bids, and every sigle org. issued a formal complait with the IFC office which led to a re-structure of how we did rush. This was in my juinor year, by the time I left it was a bit better, but not much, now they have more requirements for time conflicts, etc, but I still think that, no, you have about a 1 in 3 shot.
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  #11  
Old 10-18-2006, 12:37 PM
shinerbock shinerbock is offline
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My point was that we're really not looking for rah rah brotherhood...We're simply looking for good guys we can hang out with, who can be an asset to the place, etc. We don't take the fraternity as serious as in other places, we're in it because of who we are...who we are isn't definined by the fraternity. This isn't downplaying the role of a fraternity, its just that some places put fraternal bonds on a pedestal, often in attempt to make up for them being terrible on campus. The whole "we're not a cookie cutter fraternity..." or "quality over quantity..." stuff, is what i'm talking about. Granted, I'm also not into being a huge chapter because you throw bids at people either, but regardless of how "quality" your brothers are, you're probably not a good chapter if you've got 30 guys on a major campus.
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  #12  
Old 10-18-2006, 07:07 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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Shinerbock,

What would your cut off point be?

I think, obviously, you need enough guys to be a functioning group: to afford a house if the campus norm is to have houses, to have decent socials, etc.

But a chapter that holds steady at 30 could be okay depending on what was average for that campus. 50 to 75 might be even better, but when the groups get bigger than than, it seems to me that you get some goofy politics going inside the group that men seem to avoid in the smaller groups.

A group of thirty guys could genuinely be friends and accept and share the responsibility of being a group, but with big groups it seems to me that you get a lot of guys who want the letters to pick up girls and the house to have parties, but they won't actually do the work that is expected of a chapter by nationals.


Why are men's and women's rushes so different? Why can sororities do okay pledging some people they may not really know that well, but fraternities only seem to want to give bids to guys they already know?

Should guys' formal or "official" rush be spread out over a longer period of time, so guys who go to a campus on which they don't have any connections have a chance to get to know people? Or maybe Greek Life should explain the actual policies of groups so they would know not to rush until later?

It seems to me that some of the guys who may go bidless might not be total losers, but they just aren't known.

Last edited by UGAalum94; 10-18-2006 at 07:09 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-18-2006, 08:55 PM
TSteven TSteven is offline
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Originally Posted by Alphagamuga View Post
Why are men's and women's rushes so different?
Fraternities are from Mars, sororities are from Venus.

Stupid attempt at humor aside, I really don't see that there is a "general" problem with IFC/NIC rush. Some chapters and/or some campuses may have an occasional problem or issue on "how to" rush successfully, but not "the system" as a whole. To be clear, there may be lazy chapters, but that isn't "the system's" fault or issue.

Quote:
Why can sororities do okay pledging some people they may not really know that well, but fraternities only seem to want to give bids to guys they already know?
Again, it works. With all due respect, it seems all to often that NPC members try to mold IFC/NPC rush into their idea of how IFC/NIC rush should be implemented - i.e. "like NPC". And while that might (can) work on some campuses, for the most part, it is not needed. Remember that since IFC/NIC chapters don't have to deal with quota or campus total, the numbers don't matter the way they do with NPC chapters.

For example, on many campuses, IFC/NIC chapters tend to be smaller in membership number per chapter than NPC chapters. But often 1.5 to twice as many IFC/NIC chapters. This allows each IFC/NIC chapter to be more selective and invite guys that would fit with the rest of the chapter. The core of which is often guys already known by chapter members. Or referred to them by alumni or friends. (Hmmm. Sounds kind of similar to NPC and recommendations.) So ABC chapter might stay steady at 70 members while XYZ chapter stays steady at 100. Yet both would be considered "strong" chapters on campus.

Quote:
Should guys' formal or "official" rush be spread out over a longer period of time, so guys who go to a campus on which they don't have any connections have a chance to get to know people?
No. It is not needed. However, chapters should rush (recruit) year round. And campuses should open up rush so that "formal" rush is at least twice a year - i.e. summer/fall and spring/winter.

Please note that for the sake of discussion, I am lumping summer and fall rush into one group and winter and spring in another group.

Quote:
Or maybe Greek Life should explain the actual policies of groups so they would know not to rush until later?
Not sure I follow. But from what I gather, yes, it would help if rush policies are known. As an example, it would be good if men knew that there is both a summer/fall rush and a spring/winter rush. And that it is "ok" to wait until either to rush. Or to go about it informally. What best suits the rushee and the chapter.

Quote:
It seems to me that some of the guys who may go bridles might not be total losers, but they just aren't known.
I concur 100%.
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2006, 09:08 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I thought NPC rush was better. I actually like the freedom that fraternity rush gives groups as far as an acceptable range of membership size and control of recruitment.

I don't know of any campuses on which sororities aren't pressured to make quota, reach total or both.

But fraternities seem okay as long as membership stays large enough to be healthy in terms of future recruitment.

My last point was simply that it would be helpful for freshman men to know that at some (most?) campuses they are unlikely to get a bid if they go through rush without knowing people in the groups already.

Some guys might think that bids are extended based on how they present themselves during rush and might not know they really don't stand a chance of getting a bid if they don't know the guys already. (Particularly because the processes of IFC and NPC rush are presented pretty similarly on many greek life sites, even if it's clear that NPC is way more structured.)

If PNM guys knew that the groups were giving bids all year, then they would know to maybe attend a few things, meet some folks and develop friendships with group members, then maybe formally rush.

I'm just feeling bad for nice guys who would probably make good members but just don't know how it really works on their campus.

As long as you're at a school where guys from your high school attend or your dad attended, you probably understand the system and have connections. But if you go out of state and are one of few folks from your hometown, good luck!
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Old 10-18-2006, 10:32 PM
TSteven TSteven is offline
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Mea Culpa!

Alphagamuga: No need to apologize. I didn't take from your post that you thought NPC rush was better. However, in rereading my reply, it looked like I did. Sorry about that.

I really think your point is a very valid and important one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphagamuga View Post
My last point was simply that it would be helpful for freshman men to know that at some (most?) campuses they are unlikely to get a bid if they go through rush without knowing people in the groups already.

Some guys might think that bids are extended based on how they present themselves during rush and might not know they really don't stand a chance of getting a bid if they don't know the guys already. (Particularly because the processes of IFC and NPC rush are presented pretty similarly on many greek life sites, even if it's clear that NPC is way more structured.)

If PNM guys knew that the groups were giving bids all year, then they would know to maybe attend a few things, meet some folks and develop friendships with group members, then maybe formally rush.

I'm just feeling bad for nice guys who would probably make good members but just don't know how it really works on their campus.

As long as you're at a school where guys from your high school attend or your dad attended, you probably understand the system and have connections. But if you go out of state and are one of few folks from your hometown, good luck!
I would just add that both the IFC and the chapters need to do a better job with getting the word about rush. Doing so can help to elevate the number of potential members that a chapter might consider for a bid. To be clear, chapters should bid only those men that are good fits for the chapter. But it may also help to keep many of the "good fits" from slipping through the cracks.

One other point. I also believe that if a chapter doesn't want to have more than one rush a year, and it works for them, then more power to them. However, it just seems like many of the strong chapters do rush year round. Both formally and informally.
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