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  #1  
Old 08-21-2006, 09:51 PM
sdbeta1 sdbeta1 is offline
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Numbers Determine Top Houses?

Big question to discuss, how important are numbers on a campus? Does the top house always have the best numbers, are low numbers indicative of failure, will small chapters remain small, while large chapters remain large? A large part of a group's reputation is derived on how they do during rush, and that will stay with them through the year even though they may be doing better than most other houses.
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  #2  
Old 08-21-2006, 10:46 PM
LaneSig LaneSig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdbeta1
Big question to discuss, how important are numbers on a campus? Does the top house always have the best numbers, are low numbers indicative of failure, will small chapters remain small, while large chapters remain large? A large part of a group's reputation is derived on how they do during rush, and that will stay with them through the year even though they may be doing better than most other houses.
Good topic. But, something tells me this is going to get nasty real quick. lol

That being said: At some campuses, the largest houses will automatically be considered the best - "Alpha Beta has over 100 members. They have the best guys! Gamma Delta Epsilon only has 40 guys. What's their problem?"

At some campuses, getting a large pledge class doesn't necessarily mean they got the best. One fraternity on my undergrad campus constantly got the largest classes. But, the joke about that was that they would take anyone. Some groups concentrate on getting decent guys and don't worry about the numbers. The largest group on my campus is now one of the smallest groups. They were huge for years and now are struggling. We were small, but concentrated on getting quality guys. It ended up paying off and while we don't get the largest class (and don't want to), we get great guys and have a great rep on campus and nationally. Our numbers have went from 30-40 to around 60-70. A decent size for my old campus.
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  #3  
Old 08-22-2006, 01:42 AM
sdbeta1 sdbeta1 is offline
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But if a group doesn't pull in the amount of guys they were aiming for, say the largest group on your campus who had open bidding only took 10 guys when they were aiming for 40. While the smallest group only took 4 guys, when they were aiming for 25. Do numbers supercede a reputation that is established taking into consideration that freshman are new to campus and have limited knowledge on the different houses?
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  #4  
Old 08-22-2006, 08:32 AM
LaneSig LaneSig is offline
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Yes, numbers sometime supercede reputation and vice versa.

If a group doesn't pull in the number they were aiming for? What's the extra factor? Did they set a number that was unrealistic for their chapter/campus? Did not as many guys go through rush? Both of these can happen. Or, did they invite a large number of guys to their final pre-bid party and only a few accepted bids the next day? If it is the last version, then something is definately up whether it is a group's rep or another fraternity had a great rush and took guys that the other group would normally get.
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  #5  
Old 08-22-2006, 08:44 AM
Senusret I Senusret I is offline
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Although nobody asked, for an NPHC-oriented opinion.....

I'm of the mindset that numbers=success among NPHC fraternities. (Not really for sororities, though)

I know of one fraternity on my undergrad campus that went from no members to about 20 members over the course of a few years. During the same period, one fraternity which consistently had about one member dropped off to none, though they're coming back.

I don't think, in the case of this fraternity, they take everyone. I think they had some real hard workers who made the effort to be enthusiastic about their fraternity, wear letters frequently, cultivated positive relationships with sorority women and independent women, and oh yes, they could step their asses off. Along with all this, they had strong alumni support (both recent and older, including a local news personality) which has recently translated into a foundation being established for the chapter.

In terms of programming and service...well, since i'm in a frat, I don't really notice what they do. But I assume that because of the numbers, their programming and service is as tight as their brotherhood.

The key, for NPHC orgs, is to not sit back and assume that the interest will come to you. That's a trap that many of our orgs fall into. You have to actively cultivate brotherhood and goodwill among all men. Be a brother to get a brother.
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  #6  
Old 08-22-2006, 08:50 AM
LaneSig LaneSig is offline
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Originally Posted by Senusret I
Although nobody asked, for an NPHC-oriented opinion.....

The key, for NPHC orgs, is to not sit back and assume that the interest will come to you. That's a trap that many of our orgs fall into. You have to actively cultivate brotherhood and goodwill among all men. Be a brother to get a brother.
Hopefully everybody's opinion is welcome, whether NPHC or IFC. And, a lot of IFC chapters fall into the trap also. They think that because they were the largest chapter that everybody will come to them. Then, one bad rush following another - you won't know what hit you.

"Be a brother to get a brother" - That's one of the best ways that I've heard it put.
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  #7  
Old 08-22-2006, 10:31 AM
TSteven TSteven is offline
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What may be as or more important is how well a chapter does with retention of those pledges. While some chapters might pull in a lot of pledges, they can have a significant number drop and that can be indicative of failure as well.
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  #8  
Old 08-24-2006, 11:53 PM
EE-BO EE-BO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdbeta1
But if a group doesn't pull in the amount of guys they were aiming for, say the largest group on your campus who had open bidding only took 10 guys when they were aiming for 40. While the smallest group only took 4 guys, when they were aiming for 25. Do numbers supercede a reputation that is established taking into consideration that freshman are new to campus and have limited knowledge on the different houses?
Numbers are considered and talked about among pledge classes and actives alike. And they are important.

But that discussion really only matters within certain limits.

Where I went to school, a pledge class size could indicate that a fraternity in a certain tier might be rising or falling within its general "ranking".

And yet if a low tier fraternity of large size takes a big pledge class, it does not necessarily mean anything to the local social order.

Generally speaking, at a given school sororities will tend to be fewer in number and larger in size than fraternities.

So getting numbers is often about having the funds and size to be able to have mixers with sororities. Aside from that consideration, a fraternity's size is not all that important. It is the quality of the guys you take that matters.

Social standing matters too, of course, but numbers can tip the scales for houses that are in a position where their ability to mix with certain sororities is in question.
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  #9  
Old 08-25-2006, 05:32 PM
Tom Earp Tom Earp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EE-BO
Numbers are considered and talked about among pledge classes and actives alike. And they are important.

But that discussion really only matters within certain limits.

Where I went to school, a pledge class size could indicate that a fraternity in a certain tier might be rising or falling within its general "ranking".

And yet if a low tier fraternity of large size takes a big pledge class, it does not necessarily mean anything to the local social order.

Generally speaking, at a given school sororities will tend to be fewer in number and larger in size than fraternities.

So getting numbers is often about having the funds and size to be able to have mixers with sororities. Aside from that consideration, a fraternity's size is not all that important. It is the quality of the guys you take that matters.

Social standing matters too, of course, but numbers can tip the scales for houses that are in a position where their ability to mix with certain sororities is in question.

Not to discount NHPC, there seems to be a different mind set on how recruitment is, correct?

In Schools where there are NHPC Chapters, the numbers or low except HBC/U such as Langston, Brown, Howard, NC A& T,etal.

There will always be stronger Chapters but in retrospect, they to can fall from grace becasue of stupidity. Charters or removed and so are the Chapters. It hurts no one but themselves does it?

Granted in each part of the Country each is toataly different, but still have to report to eachs HQs.

Not every School is going to be signicant other than inside their little area.

There are other parts of the country that have Chapters and follow the rules and regulations.

PNM Numbers do not mean a thing!

They only mean something when the are Initiated and stay to work for the Chapter and grow.
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Last edited by Tom Earp; 08-25-2006 at 05:36 PM.
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  #10  
Old 08-25-2006, 06:44 PM
Senusret I Senusret I is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Earp
Not to discount NHPC, there seems to be a different mind set on how recruitment is, correct?

In Schools where there are NHPC Chapters, the numbers or low except HBC/U such as Langston, Brown, Howard, NC A& T,etal.

There will always be stronger Chapters but in retrospect, they to can fall from grace becasue of stupidity. Charters or removed and so are the Chapters. It hurts no one but themselves does it?

Granted in each part of the Country each is toataly different, but still have to report to eachs HQs.

Not every School is going to be signicant other than inside their little area.

There are other parts of the country that have Chapters and follow the rules and regulations.

PNM Numbers do not mean a thing!

They only mean something when the are Initiated and stay to work for the Chapter and grow.

I would respond to your post, but you continue to disrespect the name of the NPHC. I have asked you about this MANY times in the past. Furthermore, "low" is relative. A twenty man Alpha chapter at an HBCU might be high; but at the same school, ten might be high for the Sigmas.

But you continue to downplay NPHC organizations every time I enter a discussion, so whatever.
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  #11  
Old 08-26-2006, 04:05 AM
Senusret I Senusret I is offline
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Originally Posted by ariesrising
Sorry to crash, but Senusret's post got me thinking - do NPHC campus Pan-Hellenic's set a total # of members allowed in each NPHC group at that campus like the NPC sorority Panhellenic would for their sororities? Or is that something left up to each group to determine for themselves?

And if they do set a total, what happens if NPHC fraternities that are in NIC are on both the IFC Council and Pan-Hellenic Council? If Pan-Hellenic has total and NIC does and they're different numbers for that campus, what would an NPHC fraternity do?

Man I hope that made sense lol.
Second part first....on those campuses where Kappa, Iota, and/or Alpha are on both the local IFC it is moreso for goodwill. I am not too aware of local IFC policies on recruitment, so I can't address the "total" issue there...

However, "total" is very rare among local NPHCs. We usually call them "line caps." Quite honestly, the only orgs that line caps affect are AKA and Delta on large HBCU campuses where they could easily get over a hundred members.

"Recruitment" for us is really selection and intake. There are some similarities between how NPHC fraternities look for candidates and how NIC fraternities "rush" informally. In both processes, the members pretty much already know who they want, NPHCs because the aspirant has expressed an interest already (usually).
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2006, 12:03 PM
TSteven TSteven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senusret I
Second part first....on those campuses where Kappa, Iota, and/or Alpha are on both the local IFC it is moreso for goodwill. I am not too aware of local IFC policies on recruitment, so I can't address the "total" issue there...

However, "total" is very rare among local NPHCs. We usually call them "line caps." Quite honestly, the only orgs that line caps affect are AKA and Delta on large HBCU campuses where they could easily get over a hundred members.

"Recruitment" for us is really selection and intake. There are some similarities between how NPHC fraternities look for candidates and how NIC fraternities "rush" informally. In both processes, the members pretty much already know who they want, NPHCs because the aspirant has expressed an interest already (usually).
I know of only a few campuses that had some sort of IFC quota for formal rush. But I have never heard of a chapter total being applied to IFC. This doesn't mean that some campus may not have it, just that I am not aware of it. Now, individual chapters may decide to set a total for their chapter membership or for their pledge class. But not due to it being IFC mandated.
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2006, 03:01 PM
Tom Earp Tom Earp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senusret I
I would respond to your post, but you continue to disrespect the name of the NPHC. I have asked you about this MANY times in the past. Furthermore, "low" is relative. A twenty man Alpha chapter at an HBCU might be high; but at the same school, ten might be high for the Sigmas.

But you continue to downplay NPHC organizations every time I enter a discussion, so whatever.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you at this point.

I never disrespect another Greek Organization. I may not understand them as much as I try, but I at least have a point.

When a friend of mine agrees when we discuss this same topic, I am supposed feel he is wrong also?


Some say I disrespect other GLOs, well, they are totally wrong and ask them to prove it! Oh, and you included.

I am always glad when I hear of someone who I come in contact with about being a member or asking them if they are going to join and why not if they say no.
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2006, 03:05 PM
Tom Earp Tom Earp is offline
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Originally Posted by TSteven
I know of only a few campuses that had some sort of IFC quota for formal rush. But I have never heard of a chapter total being applied to IFC. This doesn't mean that some campus may not have it, just that I am not aware of it. Now, individual chapters may decide to set a total for their chapter membership or for their pledge class. But not due to it being IFC mandated.
If this is a new idea, I have never heard of it either.

NIC rules do not include anything like this.

Maybe the local IFC does, but I am not sure how they can get away with it?
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2006, 03:30 PM
Senusret I Senusret I is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Some say I disrespect other GLOs, well, they are totally wrong and ask them to prove it! Oh, and you included.

You never misspell NIC.

You never misspell IFC.

You ALWAYS misspell NPHC and I have asked you repeatedly to observe the proper spelling.

Do it once, it's rude, but can be forgiven. Do it numerous times, it's blatant disrespect.

And for the record, I agree with everyone else on GC who has accused you of being disrespectful of orgs other than NIC fraternities.
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