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  #16  
Old 12-10-2003, 12:12 PM
ISUKappa ISUKappa is offline
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Thank you both wptw and i'msohappythatiama for your viewpoints. It's too easy for me to forget that not everyone has the same reverence and respect for our badge as I do as a member, which makes it difficult for me to see so many badges for sale on eBay and other places. I understand the seller us just doing what he/she needs to do for their business, likewise I understand groups such as the Keepers and others from different GLOs are simply doing what they feel is right as a member of their GLO. The loyalties that tie members to their respective organizations are often very strong. Unfortunately, those loyalties also can lead to unpleasant situations, such as these, where parties on both sides feel they are in the "right" and the other is "wrong."

I guess the best we can do is educate each other and hope situations never get to the point where something really untoward happens.
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  #17  
Old 12-10-2003, 01:02 PM
PKTKKG PKTKKG is offline
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Quote:
Just a head's up, ladies... I think you'll start to see markings removed from keys more and more often. I've talked to several dealers who say they were harassed by KotK and as a result they will now be removing all markings before selling the piece. So they're not always doing it to cover up evidence of theft.

If there is nothing to hide, then why remove the information from the back of any badge? When these markings are obviously initials and indicate ownership, then in reality what other reason could they have for removing this information if not to conceal the ownership?

I have never emailed anyone selling any of our badges, although I have been tempted on a few occasions. However, I think the way some ebay listings are now worded (e.g. "Don't email me about the ownership of this pin", etc.) it is obvious that whoever is selling the merchandise knows that it belongs to someone else and really doesn't care.

If they choose not to show the information, that is one thing. However, to remove it entirely is another matter.

I find the whole idea of badge selling offensive. For those sellers who know what the badges are, I find it very distasteful that they do not contact the organization to return the badge as opposed to profiting from it. Perhaps it would be helpful if Greek organizations made an offer to purchase or give rewards for lost or stolen badges. Maybe it would reduce the temptation to sell them if a person's conscience and sense of right and wrong is not enough.
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2003, 01:36 PM
kappaloo kappaloo is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by PKTKKG
I find the whole idea of badge selling offensive. For those sellers who know what the badges are, I find it very distasteful that they do not contact the organization to return the badge as opposed to profiting from it. Perhaps it would be helpful if Greek organizations made an offer to purchase or give rewards for lost or stolen badges. Maybe it would reduce the temptation to sell them if a person's conscience and sense of right and wrong is not enough.
I don't think giving rewards would work right now. I've joked (JOKED... not serious) ... that I could pay my dues by selling my badge on e-bay. I would never do it... but it brings up the point that keys on ebay sell for far more than it costs to buy them new. Why would a seller sell a badge to HQ for cost (afterall, this is all HQ would probably be willing to pay, well, with a little extra for age) when they can sell on e-bay for far more?

While collectors keep pushing up the cost there is no incentive not to sell on e-bay... which is unfortunate.
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  #19  
Old 12-10-2003, 01:49 PM
wptw wptw is offline
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Oh, there’s clearly something to hide. I’m not denying they’re trying to conceal the membership info. I’m just saying it’s not necessarily because they know the badge is stolen, as some have suggested.

A favorite tactic of some rescue groups (and individuals) is to contact ebay and falsely report the badge stolen. Once ebay shuts down the auction, they contact the seller and offer to take it off his hands for a bargain price, sometimes spamming him mercilessly until he figures it’s less hassle to just sell them the badge at the cheap price. Or they email the seller pretending to be the original owner and giving him a sad story of how the badge was stolen. Removing the engraving solves this problem.

Of course, dealers are smarter now, and ebay no longer blindly ends auctions without proof. It’s generally agreed that a police report is required to get an auction shut down. But it’s tough for dealers when they get an email from someone claiming to be the original owner. How does the seller know whether it’s legit or a scam? If he refuses, he’s an insensitive jerk. If he agrees, he’s probably a sucker. Again, removing the engraving solves that problem.

There are a few “legit” reasons for a dealer to remove an engraving. I don’t feel like typing it all again, so I’ll refer you here…

http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...threadid=20816

Anyway, it’s not that they “know it belongs to someone else and don’t care”. They don’t agree that it belongs to you, so they’re telling you not to waste their time trying to argue it. And let’s face it: the law says unless it’s stolen, it’s theirs to sell. So you’re right, they don’t care. But that’s not because they’re mean people necessarily.

It’s hard to bring “right and wrong” into this discussion. Obviously you feel it’s wrong, but you’re probably in the minority.

Remember the days of Minister Hatchett, when a Greekchat member would post about their Christian beliefs and then get an unsolicited email or PM from Fred accusing them of not being a Christian and telling them they’re going to hell for worshipping false idols? Who’s right and who’s wrong in that scenario? Fred fervently believed he was right and that GLOs are ungodly, just as you fervently believe you’re right and that selling badges is immoral.

(not comparing you to Fred necessarily)

wptw
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  #20  
Old 12-10-2003, 01:54 PM
wptw wptw is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by kappaloo
While collectors keep pushing up the cost there is no incentive not to sell on e-bay... which is unfortunate.
Come on, Kappaloo. You know you can’t pin all the price escalation on collectors. Three words: New. York. Times.

I agree with ISUKappa…

Quote:
Originally posted by ISUKappa
Often, I'll see bids on badges that look like they're from multiple Kappas and what I'm guessing is one is a member of the Keepers group and others are well-meaning Kappas who aren't aware of the Keepers. Which is unfortunate because they keep driving the bids up on each other!
wptw
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  #21  
Old 12-10-2003, 03:24 PM
sherbertlemons sherbertlemons is offline
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Geez, I go to my final and I miss the good discussion in the Kappa forum. You people have bad timing.

Quote:
Originally posted by kappaloo
I don't think giving rewards would work right now. I've joked (JOKED... not serious) ... that I could pay my dues by selling my badge on e-bay.
I'm really not sure how long groups could afford to do that, either. If you consider the number of badges that pop up on E-bay, that could get to be a substantial amount of money.

Even then, why should what would amount to a flat amount of money entice the dealer, anyways?

And I've joked about that, too.

Wptw, you described Tyoregon as atypical. How is he atypical, just out of curiosity?

Just a general question- I've heard it said that we don't "own" our badges; we merely have a lifetime lease on them from the Fraternity. If that really is true, might it not class any badges sold by anyone other than people authorized by the Fraternity (meaning nobody) as stolen property?

To what extent is the KotK recognized by Fraternity Headquarters? My general impression is that it is something of a greassroots movement, but I was thinking if the Fraternity were willing to do so, running an article in the Key might be a great way to educate members about KotK.
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  #22  
Old 12-10-2003, 03:36 PM
wptw wptw is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sherbertlemons
Wptw, you described Tyoregon as atypical. How is he atypical, just out of curiosity?
He's not greek, he doesn't associate with the "collector community", and he tends to thrive on the conflict with rescue groups where most collectors would just as soon avoid it.

Quote:
Just a general question- I've heard it said that we don't "own" our badges; we merely have a lifetime lease on them from the Fraternity. If that really is true, might it not class any badges sold by anyone other than people authorized by the Fraternity (meaning nobody) as stolen property?
True, but that's an organizational policy and not really enforceable outside the organization. If a buy a key at an estate sale, the law says I own it free and clear.

wptw
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  #23  
Old 12-10-2003, 04:02 PM
sherbertlemons sherbertlemons is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by wptw
True, but that's an organizational policy and not really enforceable outside the organization. If a buy a key at an estate sale, the law says I own it free and clear.
Makes sense. I had wondered if you might say just that.
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  #24  
Old 12-10-2003, 04:25 PM
imsohappythatiama imsohappythatiama is offline
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Hi sherbertlemons--

Let me answer some of your questions! Sorry we timed our debate badly!!

Quote:
Originally posted by sherbertlemons
Wptw, you described Tyoregon as atypical. How is he atypical, just out of curiosity?
I'll jump in here and say he's really on the radical end of the spectrum. wptw is right-on in his assessment.

Quote:
Originally posted by sherbertlemons
Just a general question- I've heard it said that we don't "own" our badges; we merely have a lifetime lease on them from the Fraternity. If that really is true, might it not class any badges sold by anyone other than people authorized by the Fraternity (meaning nobody) as stolen property?
It is true that our badge is considered Fraternity property, but the law simply doesn't recognize that--consider that possession is 9/10 of the law.

Quote:
Originally posted by sherbertlemons
To what extent is the KotK recognized by Fraternity Headquarters? My general impression is that it is something of a greassroots movement, but I was thinking if the Fraternity were willing to do so, running an article in the Key might be a great way to educate members about KotK.
Keepers of the Key is (as of yet) unrecognized by the Fraternity in an official capacity. We have had articles run on us in The Key--and we have a great deal of support internally!

Hope this helps...if you have more questions, you shouldn't hesitate to ask.
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  #25  
Old 12-10-2003, 06:15 PM
ISUKappa ISUKappa is offline
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Quote:
I find the whole idea of badge selling offensive. For those sellers who know what the badges are, I find it very distasteful that they do not contact the organization to return the badge as opposed to profiting from it. Perhaps it would be helpful if Greek organizations made an offer to purchase or give rewards for lost or stolen badges. Maybe it would reduce the temptation to sell them if a person's conscience and sense of right and wrong is not enough.
I don't understand it either, but unfortunately, many people (especially those who are not members of GLOs) don't feel the same way. I don't even think it's an issue of their conscience, they simply don't see these badges in the same light as we do. Difference in perception.

Quote:
While collectors keep pushing up the cost there is no incentive not to sell on e-bay... which is unfortunate.
I don't feel it's solely the collectors who are pushing up the cost, it's just the general knowledge that people want these badges and the sellers know (or think, anyway) that these people will pay almost anything to get them. Demand sets the price; demand from collectors but also the demand from members trying to get the badges back to their rightful owners or GLOs.
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It's gonna be a hootenanny.
Or maybe a jamboree.
Or possibly even a shindig or lollapalooza.
Perhaps it'll be a hootshinpaloozaree. I don't know.
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  #26  
Old 12-10-2003, 08:31 PM
kappaloo kappaloo is offline
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Sorry... I shouldn't have used the term "collectors" there... I should have used the term "buyers"
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