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  #16  
Old 04-09-2003, 05:50 PM
FuzzieAlum FuzzieAlum is offline
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Whoa, Madmax, you're way off! Chapter ceilings vary all over from 25 to 100. The number of sororities varies from 1 to I think 20 (NPC). Generally speaking, in fact, there are more chapters at bigger schools. But when smaller schools have a lot of chapters, the chapter ceilings are just smaller on that campus. A system can be cutthroat with one chapter (see "Rush at UCSC") or with many, or with large or small chapter sizes.

Campus size is totally irrelevant. So is the # of chapters. Not all undergrads want to go Greek. They don't matter as far as rushee or chapter numbers, then. It can only be cutthroat if they're cutting their throats over not getting in!

The system is designed to work so almost all rushees get bids. (There are women who are deemed unsuitable in every system.) Quota expands infinitely to include ALL those women. If quota starts going above a certain point, that's when schools consider adding more Greek orgs, because the chapters only want to get so large.

The system breaks down only when rushees decide that they would rather not be Greek than join certain organizations. That's when they drop out of rush after getting cut by their organizations of choice. That's when it is considered cut-throat. On campuses where girls are more willing to consider all chapters, it's not.
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  #17  
Old 04-09-2003, 06:29 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by FuzzieAlum


The system breaks down only when rushees decide that they would rather not be Greek than join certain organizations. That's when they drop out of rush after getting cut by their organizations of choice. That's when it is considered cut-throat. On campuses where girls are more willing to consider all chapters, it's not.
And THAT says it all in a nutshell!
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  #18  
Old 04-09-2003, 06:52 PM
ZetaMelOU ZetaMelOU is offline
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Well, I know at my school, our Greek system is huge. The way that it is set up is that the minimum NPC GPA to rush is about the same as it takes to get into the University, so anyone can rush. Quota is set so that every girl who goes through rush is guarenteed a bid by at least one of the two houses that she gets on preference night. However, there are girls who don't get bids because they go suicide on preference night (instead of ranking their two houses first and second, they only put down one house and that house cuts them when normally they would have automatically gone to the 2nd house). I think only 5 girls who went through all of rush did not get bids, and they all went suicide with their first choice and got cut. We had almost a thousand girls rush, and I think by the end we were down to 850-900ish just cause some girls dropped out after not getting the house they wanted. It's really not all that cutthroat, but these girls come in with a preconception that a certain house is better when they could be completely wrong. Of the 12 houses we have here, I would only say that 2 of them would be called "bad" houses to be in by the rest of the Greek community. I would also say that I think that all of the sororities here on our campus work their tails off for formal recruitment. Yeah, some might have better reps than others to some of the incoming girls (especially the ones that have been here the longest who have lots of legacies), but if they don't look polished, then people are just going to be like "yeah, whatever...you guys aren't that great". I know that happened with a bunch of my friends who all went in thinking a certain one would be awesome, but then they saw the others and realized that there are several good ones.
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  #19  
Old 04-09-2003, 08:49 PM
2017law 2017law is offline
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quota

Something needs to be clarified about quota-

Quota is set before Prefs. So girls at UF for example find out who they have been invited back to and can choose up to 3. If she doesn't like any of the 3 and drops out, she is still in the number a chapter can take, "quota" and that messes up the whole system.
For example, UF had 16 chapters when I was a Rho Chi. Rush started with about 1300 women. Say that 200 women drop out before round 3- you have 1100 women. But only 900 show up for prefs. The quota number is still set at 1100/16 allowing each chapter to take 68/69 women plus additions. But what about the 200 hundred that dropped out? They don't count and now instead of each chapter getting about 70 for quota, the big chapters get 70, their top bid list, and the rest don't. The fact that everyone doesn't get quota is b/c attrition is not accounted for. This is part of NPC rules- quota is set after Round 3. The 200 less women come out of the numbers of the smaller chapters. It's sad, but true and that's why UF will always have struggling chapters. Now with the new DZ chapter in the mix, versus the AZD chapter that was there a few years ago, 1 of the larger chapters is going to suffer as a result. 1 of the 2 chapters struggling at the bottom, who don't get quota anyway are just now closer to closing than they were 2 years ago.
Sorry this is so long, but a lot of people don't know how quota really works.
C
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  #20  
Old 04-09-2003, 09:18 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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Re: quota

Quote:
Originally posted by 2017law
Something needs to be clarified about quota-

Quota is set before Prefs. So girls at UF for example find out who they have been invited back to and can choose up to 3. If she doesn't like any of the 3 and drops out, she is still in the number a chapter can take, "quota" and that messes up the whole system.
True, but you are assuming a SORUSH computer program. It is a little different with PRUSH.

After the round prior to pref, the women rank their chapters in order of preference. Quota is then set by the number of women who rank that night. Therefore, if some women know at this point that they have no intention of attending preference, they are not counted in quota.

Right before pref, they go to their RC groups and are handed their schedule. Sure, some of them will not get their top choices, but once you are dressed and ready to go to prefs, most women will at least give them a shot (at least, that is the theory behind PRUSH).

Of course, if women do not sign their bid cards after pref, you have the same problem, but if a girl goes to your pref and still really, really can't see herself in your chapter...it is probably for the best.
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  #21  
Old 04-10-2003, 12:03 AM
aephi alum aephi alum is offline
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Actually, we used SORUSH but based our quota on the # of women actually attending pref. We got lists of who to expect at each party, but then turned in lists (within a few minutes of the start of the party) of who actually showed up. Quota was calculated during the final pref party; chapters were informed once that party ended, and constructed their bid lists accordingly.

Still doesn't solve the problem of people cross-cut before prefs, though, or people who get their hearts set on 1 or 2 GLOs, then drop out if those GLOs cut them.
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  #22  
Old 04-10-2003, 10:03 AM
Peaches-n-Cream Peaches-n-Cream is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by FuzzieAlum

The system breaks down only when rushees decide that they would rather not be Greek than join certain organizations. That's when they drop out of rush after getting cut by their organizations of choice. That's when it is considered cut-throat. On campuses where girls are more willing to consider all chapters, it's not.
Quote:
Originally posted by aephi alum

Still doesn't solve the problem of people cross-cut before prefs, though, or people who get their hearts set on 1 or 2 GLOs, then drop out if those GLOs cut them.
When I was in school, many women were dropped from the sororities that they wanted. Some rushees would rather drop out of rush than continue if they weren't invited to one of their top three out of seven sororities. I felt bad for these young women who had their hearts broken until they wouldn't be bothered to rush or COB a sorority that they considered 'inferior'. It was really hard to combat that image. I always thought that if all of the women who dropped out or didn't get a bid decided to pledge one of the two smaller sororities, they could even out the numbers and change the inferior image. Unfortunately, that rarely happens. In fact within a few years, one of the sororities folded.

Last edited by Peaches-n-Cream; 04-10-2003 at 10:06 AM.
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  #23  
Old 04-10-2003, 10:19 AM
ajuhdg ajuhdg is offline
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I've been watching this thread and laughing threw the whole thing. Rush always makes me laugh! Especially when you were talking about six women rushing one 'RUSH CRUSH'. Back in my rush days, I remember one particular GLO that our advisors said were 'Born to Rush'. Of course, they brought in the Miss. __ for our state, who was one of their members. While some considerded it an unfair advantage, the type of girls these women went for were always the glamour types. I think this is what can also make rush so cut-throat, as has been discussed. There are always shallow chapters, and those that rule the campus can sometimes have their pick. But, like you stated, that girl left due to GPA.

This power-chapter at my school was great at rushing, but awful at retention. I'm glad that some organizations remember how important keeping their girls is to the whole experience. If you can't keep them for more than a year, what's the point of it? QUALITY, not quantity! Looking back, I guess I was the same way though...we all want to be the 'pretty girls'. Who knows!

Adrienne
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  #24  
Old 04-10-2003, 12:27 PM
justamom justamom is offline
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Putting all the "PC" talk aside.
What do sororities REALLY want in their membership?
Young women who have-
Looks for the image
Brains for the standing
Money for the dues AND extension of the image
Personality for cohesiveness
Work ethic for volunteerism, visibility and chapter operations.

Take 1000 women with quota at 75 and you cover 10 chapters. Allowing for drop out and bidless you START with 250 girls who will not find a house. OK-I'm not using quota plus- not relevant to this post.

Let's say the Greek system is strong and like some of the campuses mentioned on GC, one or two houses are not as desirable as others.(For whatever reason.) On paper these 2 houses are competing with 8 other houses. However, in reality, these houses are not competing with the farthest end of the spectrum. They must work their way up the ladder. If there are 2 top houses, they in essence are only competing with half or maybe even less.

Working with a number of 750 PNMs, what percentage would fit the original criteria? (Brains beauty money...) I would venture a guess that it would be well below half. Remember all you sociology majors, in every social group, there exists a "pecking order". Working with half, 375 PNMs, means 5 sororities could hypothetically pull in the "dream" pledge class. That also would seem to differentiate the top from the bottom tier sororities. (IMO)
Now, if you are just skimming the 50% mark as a PNM OR as a sorority, you are going to fight tooth and nail to pull yourself up.
I think when we hear of HUNDREDS of PNMS going through rush, it is important to remember that just as some girls turn their noses up at certain sororities....well you can finish the thought.

This example excludes the "human" element, but
the fact is, when you consider what a sorority DREAMS of when they think of their NM class, there just aren't that many girls who have it all NOR sororities that have it "all". Hence-cut throat!
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  #25  
Old 04-10-2003, 01:15 PM
ajuhdg ajuhdg is offline
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WOW! For being 'JustaMom' that was an amazing rant! You pretty much said my sentiments exactly. I think that every PNM should read your post, it is a sad but true statement! I think it would answer MANY questions!

Well said....

Adrienne
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  #26  
Old 04-12-2003, 11:08 AM
DGMarie DGMarie is offline
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I would agree with you Justamom

From my perspective, this was exactly the case at my school.
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  #27  
Old 04-12-2003, 02:32 PM
James James is offline
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Justamom. A good no-shit analysis lol.
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  #28  
Old 04-12-2003, 03:02 PM
Peaches-n-Cream Peaches-n-Cream is offline
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Yet again, JAM hits the nail on the head.

I didn't go to a cut throat school for rush by the definition provided here, but your analysis is still accurate. In fact one of the 'top' sororities rated the rushees from 1 to 5 for looks and 1 to 5 for personality and ranked them for their bid lists. They wanted a pledge class made up of perfect 10s. That's what they usually got, too. One year they had 31 beautiful freshman and one sweet and nice but normal looking pledge. She was a legacy.
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  #29  
Old 04-12-2003, 11:50 PM
Texas-Gal Texas-Gal is offline
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Quote:
The system breaks down only when rushees decide that they would rather not be Greek than join certain organizations. That's when they drop out of rush after getting cut by their organizations of choice. That's when it is considered cut-throat. On campuses where girls are more willing to consider all chapters, it's not.
That is the most succinct analysis of the problem.

A UTexas, there are 14 NPC sororities (15 when I was there). There is a clearly defined pecking order among the 12 non-Jewish NPC sororities (and a definite 1-2 order among those 2 Jewish ones):

Top Three
#4
#5
the next two
the next three
the bottom two

For the vast majority of the hundreds and hundreds (thousands) of women who rush, Top 3 is completely out of their reach, #4 and #5 are quite difficult to get a bid from, with the next five groups still being no cakewalk to get into. Many, many women would rather drop out completely than pledge one of the bottom two, possibly even the next group of 3 above the bottom 2. I would place myself in that group, because I would not have wanted to spend 4 years in an organization that was constantly being "put in its place" (so to speak) at a school that already has a Greek-hostile environment.

This rigid hierarchy is like a self-fulfilling prophecy, though. The Top 3 will always be Top 3. The next 4 groups will always get quota with the best girls not taken by Top 3. The next 3 groups will usually get close to quota (if not making quota) with great girls. The bottom two will always struggle through rush, and try mightily, to maybe end up with only 50-60% of quota (if that).

The harsh reality at UT is that if you did not attend the right high school, run in the right circles, and are not a direct Texas legacy to Top 3 (and possibly #4 and #5), 99.9% of the time you will NOT get in. No matter if you are the greatest girl, with the best personality.

This is essentially what killed that 15th NPC group that still existed on campus while I was there. They were unable to ever even come close to making quota, and their house was half as big as the 12 houses. It's also probably the reason no sorority has tried to colonize at UT, the largest university in the country, in 30 years.
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  #30  
Old 04-13-2003, 07:23 PM
Betarulz! Betarulz! is offline
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I find it interesting that this became a discussion about the system of quota...

For me I look at my own greek system which is big and very strong, however I wouldn't classify it as cutthroat. Comparing it to aforementioned schools that are big, strong, and cutthroat makes me wonder what the difference is.

What I see the difference as being is the importance of greek life at the cutthroat schools...Sorority affiliation as I understand it in the south is such a big deal to what girls see as their perceived future viability that to join a house that is not considered strong would be more damaging than not going greek at all. Girls have friends that they talk to and they do their research, and know where they want to go...

In my experience as a campus tour guide here at Nebraska, I find that most HS Seniors have no concept of greek life unless they have older siblings in the greek system, and Beta Theta Pi sounds the same as Gamma Phi Beta is the same as Phi Gamma Delta is the same as Delta Gamma is the same as Kappa Delta is the same as Kappa Sigma so on and so forth....(I purposefully chose fraternities and sororities to demonstrate my point). And since there is not this supposed alteration of future potential that goes along with joining a certain house, they don't have to know all the houses and what their ranks are.

Thus when most of the girls go through rush they have little idea of campus reputation, and they are allowed to find the house that fits for them. Since most girls don't know reputations of the houses, there is not a scenario in which 75% of the 700 girls that go through rush are all dying to get in to 3 or 4 houses, which seems to the case in those cutthroat schools in which the vast majority of girls are looking to getting in to few select houses.

And because those houses have so many girls that are trying to get into their house they have to approach rush with some way of letting those girls go...and so legacies and those with multiple recs are not given a free ticket to the later rounds.

In my assesment of the situations, this is not a question of quota or total. It simply comes down to the fact that there is such a perceived impact on one's future due to Greek Affiliation that girls are stuck having to figure out some way to reach the top houses so they don't miss their opportunity.
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