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  #16  
Old 02-26-2003, 12:42 PM
archangel689 archangel689 is offline
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It's rummored the locals haze here too. I don't know how true the stories are, so I will not spread rummor.

I do not condone hazing but, I doubt that a local which partakes in hazing will stay affiliated with a national very long if the national attempts to tell them how to run their pledging system.


Locals that are older then dirt know that they can survive without national support and arent afraid to dump national affiliations, especially if the national is telling them to change something they've been doing for longer then that national has even existed!

Last edited by archangel689; 02-26-2003 at 12:48 PM.
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  #17  
Old 02-26-2003, 01:06 PM
xp2k xp2k is offline
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Smile

Carnation,

Any word on the fraternities yet?

I think I know which college you teach at now becuase they listed the schools where we were looking at possibly to expand.

Out of your wishes, I'll keep quiet though

Best of luck with everything though!!!
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  #18  
Old 02-26-2003, 01:08 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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I believe the college is requiring them to go national? (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.) Either they go national or they have to disband.

That doesn't mean that they'll be fully prevented from hazing, but they'll definitely have to go underground with it if they decide to keep doing it.

I think the situation is that these groups would be attracting a lot more students if they didn't do so much hazing -- there are lots of people who would want to join the groups if they didn't require ridiculous acts to join -- so regardless of whether the original members decide to remain in the groups after hazing, the groups will attract new ones.
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  #19  
Old 02-26-2003, 01:13 PM
archangel689 archangel689 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice
I believe the college is requiring them to go national? (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.) Either they go national or they have to disband.

That doesn't mean that they'll be fully prevented from hazing, but they'll definitely have to go underground with it if they decide to keep doing it.

I think the situation is that these groups would be attracting a lot more students if they didn't do so much hazing -- there are lots of people who would want to join the groups if they didn't require ridiculous acts to join -- so regardless of whether the original members decide to remain in the groups after hazing, the groups will attract new ones.
How could they be required to go national? Is this a private/catholic university? A public university cannot do that, a public university cannot deny organizations entry.
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  #20  
Old 02-26-2003, 01:17 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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archangel -

I think there is a previous thread with more detail about carnation's school. The two biggest probs are 1) people are quitting in their sophomore year, once they've had a chance to haze the new people and 2) what would normally be the type to go Greek - the really involved, intelligent kids - avoid the groups because of it. The uninvolvement of alumni is one reason the hazing has gotten so bad.

I think it is expected that the more stringent rules of the nationals will weed out the bad seeds.

and yes, it is a private university.
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  #21  
Old 02-26-2003, 01:20 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Actually, essentially they can.

My school, which is a public university, does not allow local sororities or fraternities. I think this is true of many of the big state schools. It's just too much of a risk management problem, since if something goes wrong, the school will be held responsible. At least with national organizations, they know somebody else is watching out for that kind of thing -- or should be, at least.

Of course, the school can't force the sorority or fraternity to disband; it's in their constitutional rights to be able to meet as a group. But the school can forbid them to advertise on campus, participate in formal rush, be a part of IFC or Panhel, display letters on a house (at some schools, the school itself owns the Greek houses!), be listed in the student organization directory, etc. These things can go far towards killing off a group -- most people don't want to deal with the kind of extra work that being an unrecognized fraternity or sorority will bring.

Last edited by sugar and spice; 02-26-2003 at 01:40 PM.
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  #22  
Old 02-26-2003, 01:23 PM
pialpha92 pialpha92 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice

I think the situation is that these groups would be attracting a lot more students if they didn't do so much hazing -- there are lots of people who would want to join the groups if they didn't require ridiculous acts to join -- so regardless of whether the original members decide to remain in the groups after hazing, the groups will attract new ones.
If there are that many people wanting to join GLO's just not the local ones the best solution might be to invite national GLO's to colonize there on their own. That way they can start fresh. It would be easier I am sure than trying to transition the existing locals into a national - if they have been there that long I doubt they will accept change easily. Also, if the hazing is that big of a problem then the school should close them down anyway - that won't stop just because they slap a new set of letters on them.

Just my opinion
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  #23  
Old 02-26-2003, 01:27 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Here's the other thread on this (more info).

http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showth...s&pagenumber=1
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  #24  
Old 02-26-2003, 01:39 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Wow! A lot went on on this thread while I was teaching class!

Yes, the college has told the locals they must go national. I've been told that nationwide, many locals have been made to go national because of liability...the insurance companies are no doubt hoping that national HQs will crack down on hazing so no problems will occur.

Sorority hazing has disappeared from this campus, best I can tell. I had a feeling this would happen once we got a student activities advisor who told the women that hazing just wasn't done by classy groups. I've heard other professors say that the college feared that hazing would remain if the locals stayed local. In addition, many of the most beloved professors are national Greeks.

It's a whole new ballgame here! The Greeks have freshman members who would no more haze or tolerate being hazed than I would. Numbers have gone up and there's an air of expectancy here. I can't wait to see what will happen!
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  #25  
Old 02-26-2003, 01:50 PM
GPhiBLtColonel GPhiBLtColonel is offline
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Hey Carnation!

I bumped this back up so we could get a report of the frats there -- weren't they supposed to choose which ones would come on by now? Also didn't a sorority already come visit? Tell us more more more already!!!
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  #26  
Old 02-26-2003, 02:11 PM
archangel689 archangel689 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by carnation
Wow! A lot went on on this thread while I was teaching class!

Yes, the college has told the locals they must go national. I've been told that nationwide, many locals have been made to go national because of liability...the insurance companies are no doubt hoping that national HQs will crack down on hazing so no problems will occur.
I'm still not so sure about this whole thing.


Basically the supreme court case stated that publicly funded schools cannot deny recognition to new groups seeking affiliation.

The actual case involved the Students for a Democratic Society. The university didn't want the group to come to campus because it had a reputation for violent protest. The Supreme Court decided that the reputation for violence was not nough to keep a chapter from forming. Here is a link for the case:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...s/408/169.html



In addition, forcing Locals to affiliate with nationals is stupid. It curbs the growth of new nationals.[/i] It's terirble how locals are disrespected. I know that our school doesn't like our 100 year old locals, but they know if they tried something like this, would cause a riot from both greeks and alumni.

Last edited by archangel689; 02-26-2003 at 03:00 PM.
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  #27  
Old 02-26-2003, 02:16 PM
FuzzieAlum FuzzieAlum is offline
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It doesn't matter what rights students theoretically have; what matters is what happens in reality, and schools DO in reality forbid locals or make them go national. If someone wants to find a lawyer to take these people to court, be my guest, but saying that theoretically these things shouldn't happen doesn't do a speck of good toward preventing it.

I don't know what "new nationals" are having their growth curbed. The last NPC sorority was formed in the 1910s! There is at least one old national non-NPC sorority, but it's quite small - and growing, and I don't know of any serious attempts to found a new NPC-style national sorority in the last 50 years. New national groups are mostly multicultural or ethnic- or major-specific, and guess what, they're growing too!
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  #28  
Old 02-26-2003, 02:29 PM
archangel689 archangel689 is offline
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I don't think it matters when the last national group was formed. And I don't think there haven't been attempts to form new national groups, I just think here have been many failures. Check out the locals forum, I am sure there is talk about going national and trying to establish beta chapters. Founding a chapter is damn hard enough, I know first-hand. Founding a national is probably so hard, it's near impossible and this will just make it harder.

My point is that if there are any groups attempting to go national, they will be killed if this effort to force locals to affiliate with nationals becomes common place with universities across the country.

In addition you are quite possibly killing off hundred years of traditions and ritual and who knows what else by forcing these groups to affiliate with nationals.

Please also understand that I am arguing this on a broad level. I'm not saying that locals going national will not, in this singular case at hand, benifit them and the university. I simply think that locals being forced to take on national affiliation just because they are locals is terrible.

Last edited by archangel689; 02-26-2003 at 02:44 PM.
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  #29  
Old 02-26-2003, 03:06 PM
GPhiBLtColonel GPhiBLtColonel is offline
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......I agree that forcing a local to go nat'l SIMPLY because it is local is bad...but that is not the case here or many other places either -- check out wishinhopin's very long thread about her NBO local sorority at UCSC trying to go national -- the reason there are locals that are seemingly forced to go national is just as Carnation has stated...regardless of how old they are and how much tradition they have...if they are doing bad things (e.g. hazing) and offering little benefits from membership and fewer students are wanting to join, then a local's history and tradition just don't amount to much on the overall scheme of things...

I think also that trying to establish a national org along the lines of an NPC, NPHC etc really needs to have a clear focus and purpose that sets them apart from what is already out there in order to succeed...otherwise they WILL fail and not just because of the oft-exhaustive work of many folks...

Just my two cents....
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Last edited by GPhiBLtColonel; 02-26-2003 at 03:26 PM.
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  #30  
Old 02-26-2003, 03:22 PM
MSKKG MSKKG is offline
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The locals at Wake Forest "had" to go national because of liability reasons and pressure from WF, if I remember correctly. I think the transition was difficult at first, but everything worked out for the best.

Can't wait to hear what happens, carnation!
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