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  #16  
Old 10-24-2021, 12:48 PM
NoID NoID is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
As a whole, I think Greek orgs may be stumbling, but I think they'll regain their footing. I think we need to be diverse and inclusive, but at the same time, not cave or cower to these external forces asking for changes against our best interests or demanding that we disband. Our groups need to be more vocal about our right to exist, our years of tradition, the services we provide, etc. We need to be much more vocal.

We need to do a much better job holding members accountable, owning our bad actions and cooperating with schools in ensuring the bad choices of members are not the bad choices of our organizations, i.e., let's collectively avoid responding to RM infractions as the UTenn Pikes responded to that whole butt chugging incident--years ago, but what a literal shitshow. We should look at that incident as a case study of exactly how not to respond to an incident.

We have to walk the tightrope of not giving up what we are while remaining relevant.
This.

I believe some organizations are catering to a vocal minority who joined an organization for one reason and then want to change it because it's not what they were actually looking for.

MANY of the recalcitrant alumnae of NPC sororities say something like "Yeah, when the D9 includes whites ....". Makes me cringe. But we look at their purpose. Those organizations were formed with the intent of furthering non-white acceptance and networking. In other words, they have a racial component that the IFC and the NPC has only in tradition, not in purpose. We can change tradition without changing the purpose of the organization.

When an organization publicizes its desire to change its focus based on the calls from collegians to change tradition, they'll fail. When they change tradition to inclusivity - of all *viewpoints*, not all races, they'll find their footing again.
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  #17  
Old 10-24-2021, 02:45 PM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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IMO, the "institution" of Greek Life isn't really necessary anymore. All of the perks that (general) we promote are no longer exclusive to Greek Life (not that they were before, but there was the perception). And rather than update for the times, there appears to be a ton of resistance.

I often read a lot of "well why do we have to do this and that change" for things that (to me) don't seem to be huge deals. To me, the core of my Greek experience was the *living* of the experience, not the minutia. So if (for example) my organization stopped a legacy requirement, to me that's not a big deal because my experience isn't tied to that. I suspect many outsiders or newbies see "the establishment" as being immovable and it's a turn off.

I liken it to the music industry shift. For a while, the only way to "make it" was to go through a label and that whole process. Now you can forge your own path independently or within small collectives without the backing of a huge label.

I think many newer members are aware of this and if GLOs want to appeal to those people, they'll need to meet them where they're at.
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  #18  
Old 10-25-2021, 12:04 AM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
Chapters closing left and right, people saying Greek life was over and outdated.
But is what happened then an apples and apples comparison to present day and what's occurring now? I wouldn't know, as this statement is very vague, but as others have pointed out, probably not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post
I find it pretty hard to rationalize why organizations with intangible selective membership criteria and practices that are not open to public inspection need university recognition.

I love Greek life. Adore it. I find myself always asking professionals whether they pledged in college (or later).

But what many organizations seem to be seem to be only tangentially related to the education of values or service to the community.

I am totally fine with anybody joining anything they want off-campus.

I think organizations seeking recognition, or (as my college called it) access to benefits, it should prioritize significant community service, prioritize pathways to academic excellence, be committed to anti-racism, and in the case of men's organizations, demonstrate a commitment to ending rape.
All of this. If that's what we preach, we should be committed to it when associated with a college or university.

I also think back to the thread regarding the NPC creating a community college task force, and there were very mixed reactions to the thought of gaining members at those institutions. I've always been of the mindset: why not? Why not create chapters that can function within parameters outside of a four-year institution? We do so with our alumni chapters, so what's stopping us? And perhaps there's another alternative where those members could be part of an alumni/citywide chapter, merging both alumni and non-traditional college students?

But I digress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
As a whole, I think Greek orgs may be stumbling, but I think they'll regain their footing. I think we need to be diverse and inclusive, but at the same time, not cave or cower to these external forces asking for changes against our best interests or demanding that we disband. Our groups need to be more vocal about our right to exist, our years of tradition, the services we provide, etc. We need to be much more vocal.

We need to do a much better job holding members accountable, owning our bad actions and cooperating with schools in ensuring the bad choices of members are not the bad choices of our organizations, i.e., let's collectively avoid responding to RM infractions as the UTenn Pikes responded to that whole butt chugging incident--years ago, but what a literal shitshow. We should look at that incident as a case study of exactly how not to respond to an incident.

We have to walk the tightrope of not giving up what we are while remaining relevant.
We can't do what you suggest (in bold) in your first paragraph - and expect to stay relevant - if we don't do what you suggest in your second paragraph. We can scream from the rooftops all we want, but if we're not living those same values we preach, no one will believe what we're saying. As the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
Okay, I want someone to tell me exactly what they mean by diversity and inclusiveness. I know racial diversity, but what else? And I feel like some people think it means we should pledge anyone who wanders up even if they're seriously disturbed or a total social media risk or they have a 1.2 GPA.
Race, homosexuality, identity, disability, etc. There are so many directions to go with this.

And I have yet to see or hear anyone arguing we should accept members who have severe mental issues that would put members' health in jeopardy, nor have I seen a push for us to accept students with a GPA so low that even the university would kick them out of the school entirely. Are there articles about this? Social media posts? Widespread protests? If so, I missed them entirely.

Also, what about "diversity" by looks/attractiveness? This alone makes people think that the system, and especially certain chapters, are judging potential members on looks alone. It seems this is particularly emphasized in sororities. Heck, one only needs to look as far as other recent threads on Greekchat discussing one NPC sorority in particular to know that this is still a huge issue that can play a major part in membership selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoID View Post
I believe some organizations are catering to a vocal minority who joined an organization for one reason and then want to change it because it's not what they were actually looking for.

MANY of the recalcitrant alumnae of NPC sororities say something like "Yeah, when the D9 includes whites ....". Makes me cringe. But we look at their purpose. Those organizations were formed with the intent of furthering non-white acceptance and networking. In other words, they have a racial component that the IFC and the NPC has only in tradition, not in purpose. We can change tradition without changing the purpose of the organization.

When an organization publicizes its desire to change its focus based on the calls from collegians to change tradition, they'll fail. When they change tradition to inclusivity - of all *viewpoints*, not all races, they'll find their footing again.
*snaps*

Quote:
Originally Posted by knight_shadow View Post
IMO, the "institution" of Greek Life isn't really necessary anymore. All of the perks that (general) we promote are no longer exclusive to Greek Life (not that they were before, but there was the perception). And rather than update for the times, there appears to be a ton of resistance.

I often read a lot of "well why do we have to do this and that change" for things that (to me) don't seem to be huge deals. To me, the core of my Greek experience was the *living* of the experience, not the minutia. So if (for example) my organization stopped a legacy requirement, to me that's not a big deal because my experience isn't tied to that. I suspect many outsiders or newbies see "the establishment" as being immovable and it's a turn off.

I liken it to the music industry shift. For a while, the only way to "make it" was to go through a label and that whole process. Now you can forge your own path independently or within small collectives without the backing of a huge label.

I think many newer members are aware of this and if GLOs want to appeal to those people, they'll need to meet them where they're at.
Again, *snaps*. As you say, people are finding other ways in college to obtain the same benefits we advertise. And if they can do that with a - real or perceived - absence of sexual assault, discrimination, hazing, unfair judgment by their peers, etc., then they may just steer clear of Greek life altogether and tell others to do the same.
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Last edited by ASTalumna06; 10-25-2021 at 01:15 AM.
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  #19  
Old 10-25-2021, 07:36 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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[QUOTE=ASTalumna06;2487570]
and I also think back to the thread regarding the NPC creating a community college task force, and there were very mixed reactions to the thought of gaining members at those institutions. I've always been of the mindset: why not? Why not create chapters that can function within parameters outside of a four-year institution? We do so with our alumni chapters, so what's stopping us? And perhaps there's another alternative where those members could be part of an alumni/citywide chapter, merging both alumni and non-traditional college students?

--I don't know what it's like where you live but frequently the kids here who go to community/tech colleges as freshmen do not have the high school grades to get into 4 year schools. There are, of course, exceptions but I don't see the schools I know well having enough of them to form a viable chapter.--




Race, homosexuality, identity, disability, etc. There are so many directions to go with this.

And I have yet to see or hear anyone arguing we should accept members who have severe mental issues that would put members' health in jeopardy, nor have I seen a push for us to accept students with a GPA so low that even the university would kick them out of the school entirely. Are there articles about this? Social media posts? Widespread protests? If so, I missed them entirely.

- I have actually seen pushes to accept everyone who wants to sign up. One of these happened at a college where I taught; one year it was required that everyone get a bid. Our most bizarre students came out of the woodwork and pledged and it was hell for quite some time. The dean who thought up that crap suddenly left the school midyear. -


Also, what about "diversity" by looks/attractiveness? This alone makes people think that the system, and especially certain chapters, are judging potential members on looks alone. It seems this is particularly emphasized in sororities. Heck, one only needs to look as far as other recent threads on Greekchat discussing one NPC sorority in particular to know that this is still a huge issue that can play a major part in membership selection.

--Not sure where you would start on this one. "Hey, this girl is a real troll, let's pledge her and those 2 trolls from Hickstown to make our "unattractiveness" quota."

--"OK, would pledging those 2 600-lb. girls and the one with 8 eyes satisfy those outsiders who are demanding a looks quota?"

--"Where's that scale where we rate girls on their attractiveness? We need to decide if those 3 girls we discussed are ugly enough to put on the bid list and satisfy outsiders."--/QUOTE]
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  #20  
Old 10-25-2021, 09:32 AM
FSUZeta FSUZeta is offline
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Originally Posted by knight_shadow View Post


I liken it to the music industry shift. For a while, the only way to "make it" was to go through a label and that whole process. Now you can forge your own path independently or within small collectives without the backing of a huge label.
If, in fact, today's students have this mindset, then they should start an independent greek organization (local); not go through recruitment, join an established chapter, and then decide they don't like the rules they have pledged to abide, and try to shut the chapter down. Granted, I do not follow the music industry closely, but I haven't heard of disillusioned artists trying to shut down large and established record companies because the artists might not have been chosen to work for them, because the company only chooses people with musical talent, and/or who have good looks.

If they forge their own path independently in Greek life, they can start their own chapter, they can set their own standards, make their own rules, and pledge whomever they please-similar to the independent record companies/small collectives.

My issue is with students trying to shut down organizations they are not members of, because they don't like the concept of the org, as well as members of organizations who have now decided they no longer want to be a member, and they do not want anyone else to be a member. These tactics remind me of brownshirt strategies. Bullying at its highest level.

There are several national/international organizations with whom I have philosophical differences, but I would not try to shut them down. I merely do not support them. If all the organizations anyone didn't like were shut down, there would be no organizations remaining.
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  #21  
Old 10-25-2021, 09:41 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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Preach!!!
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  #22  
Old 10-25-2021, 10:42 AM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation View Post
--I don't know what it's like where you live but frequently the kids here who go to community/tech colleges as freshmen do not have the high school grades to get into 4 year schools. There are, of course, exceptions but I don't see the schools I know well having enough of them to form a viable chapter.-
Then keep the same GPA requirement. I also don't see why expansions to these schools can't be selective - just like they are with four-year institutions currently.

Quote:
- I have actually seen pushes to accept everyone who wants to sign up. One of these happened at a college where I taught; one year it was required that everyone get a bid. Our most bizarre students came out of the woodwork and pledged and it was hell for quite some time. The dean who thought up that crap suddenly left the school midyear.
So one school one year attempted this, it failed, and the dean left. ::shrugs:: This seems very anecdotal and doesn't point to widespread changes being pushed.

Quote:
--Not sure where you would start on this one. "Hey, this girl is a real troll, let's pledge her and those 2 trolls from Hickstown to make our "unattractiveness" quota."

--"OK, would pledging those 2 600-lb. girls and the one with 8 eyes satisfy those outsiders who are demanding a looks quota?"

--"Where's that scale where we rate girls on their attractiveness? We need to decide if those 3 girls we discussed are ugly enough to put on the bid list and satisfy outsiders."--/QUOTE]
I'm not arguing to put policies in place surrounding this, per say, and certainly not the extreme and unrealistic ones you've suggested. I was speaking of perceptions and why some are turned off by Greek life. And when our national orgs are sending down directives to only take the "pretty girls", that doesn't help. All it takes is one, and people think the whole system operates that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSUZeta View Post
If, in fact, today's students have this mindset, then they should start an independent greek organization (local); not go through recruitment, join an established chapter, and then decide they don't like the rules they have pledged to abide, and try to shut the chapter down. Granted, I do not follow the music industry closely, but I haven't heard of disillusioned artists trying to shut down large and established record companies because the artists might not have been chosen to work for them, because the company only chooses people with musical talent, and/or who have good looks.
I won't speak for knight_shadow, but I don't think his comments were referring to the people trying to shut down these chapters. You even said so in the second half of the paragraph above - that would be comparing apples and oranges since artists aren't trying to shut down record companies.
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  #23  
Old 10-25-2021, 11:03 AM
FSUZeta FSUZeta is offline
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Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post



I won't speak for knight_shadow, but I don't think his comments were referring to the people trying to shut down these chapters. You even said so in the second half of the paragraph above - that would be comparing apples and oranges since artists aren't trying to shut down record companies.
That's my point exactly. These artists found a solution that enabled them to do what they wanted, without shutting down the existing record companies or abolishing the record business altogether. They acted like adults, worked around the problem and moved on.

If the artists make great music independently, people will buy it. If these disgruntled members or outsiders make a viable and better alternative to current Greek life, people will join, and our orgs will eventually die out due to attrition. But I don't see any alternatives being offered when members want to shut down their chapters.They are not resigning their memberships and starting a new, better, independent "personhood"; they are demanding that their chapter be closed, forever and a day, and that is what I have a problem with.
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  #24  
Old 10-25-2021, 11:10 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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AST. that was the only instance I cited. I know of several more where schools got all touchy-feely-kumbaya-let's pledge everyone and it all went down the toilet. For instance, I believe I have referenced another one from Birmingham Southern several times but this time I only spoke of the one that a college I taught at because I lived that one.
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  #25  
Old 10-25-2021, 02:21 PM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation View Post
--Not sure where you would start on this one. "Hey, this girl is a real troll, let's pledge her and those 2 trolls from Hickstown to make our "unattractiveness" quota."

--"OK, would pledging those 2 600-lb. girls and the one with 8 eyes satisfy those outsiders who are demanding a looks quota?"

--"Where's that scale where we rate girls on their attractiveness? We need to decide if those 3 girls we discussed are ugly enough to put on the bid list and satisfy outsiders."--
That's quite a leap to go from "maybe we should look beyond having Stepford Chapters" and "we need a fat and ugly quota."

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSUZeta View Post
If, in fact, today's students have this mindset, then they should start an independent greek organization (local); not go through recruitment, join an established chapter, and then decide they don't like the rules they have pledged to abide, and try to shut the chapter down. Granted, I do not follow the music industry closely, but I haven't heard of disillusioned artists trying to shut down large and established record companies because the artists might not have been chosen to work for them, because the company only chooses people with musical talent, and/or who have good looks.

If they forge their own path independently in Greek life, they can start their own chapter, they can set their own standards, make their own rules, and pledge whomever they please-similar to the independent record companies/small collectives.

My issue is with students trying to shut down organizations they are not members of, because they don't like the concept of the org, as well as members of organizations who have now decided they no longer want to be a member, and they do not want anyone else to be a member. These tactics remind me of brownshirt strategies. Bullying at its highest level.

There are several national/international organizations with whom I have philosophical differences, but I would not try to shut them down. I merely do not support them. If all the organizations anyone didn't like were shut down, there would be no organizations remaining.
Perhaps I missed something (if there's a thread somewhere, happy to go look at it) but are outsiders calling the shots?

My perception from what I've seen posted here is less "let's infiltrate Greek Life in order to destroy it" and more "Yay I'm happy to join - wait a minute, now that I'm in, this isn't what I thought it would be and I/HQ doesn't want us to change it."

If (general) you are selling something ("we value our diverse and inclusive brotherhood!") that doesn't seem to turn out to be accurate ("97% of us look like the football team from Country Club High School!"), it makes sense that people would have some buyers remorse.

And we almost always tell people to be the change they want to see. If those requests go unanswered, then why would the outgoing members care about the fallout as they exit?
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  #26  
Old 10-25-2021, 02:28 PM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post
I won't speak for knight_shadow, but I don't think his comments were referring to the people trying to shut down these chapters. You even said so in the second half of the paragraph above - that would be comparing apples and oranges since artists aren't trying to shut down record companies.
You're right - I was speaking about Greek Life in general.

But still - if this is becoming a trend (trying to shut down a chapter on your way out), it's also telling that "grow up, spoiled brats" is what is seemingly acceptable, rather than "I wonder why this is happening at an increased rate. Let's do a retrospective."

Just my $0.02
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  #27  
Old 10-25-2021, 02:55 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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But still - if this is becoming a trend (trying to shut down a chapter on your way out), it's also telling that "grow up, spoiled brats" is what is seemingly acceptable, rather than "I wonder why this is happening at an increased rate. Let's do a retrospective."
This is true!

But about quotas: some chapters have come under pressure lately in the DEI area. Quotas were major failures in the 70s and they will be if instituted now. What happened to freedom of association? I may not agree with some chapters' member choices but they can choose who they want.

And yes, knight shadow, various groups are trying to call the shots for NPC sororities.
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  #28  
Old 10-25-2021, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post

What do you think is the biggest threat to the Greek system, and why? Can it be changed? Why or why not? SHOULD anything be changed? Who should be making the changes (the larger blanket organizations, individual fraternities and/or sororities, individual chapters)? What can we all do better? Do you feel there are forces of change being pushed on us from inside our organizations or from the outside, or both? Does it make sense to "ignore the haters" in order to survive or make meaningful changes to adjust to the times?

What say you, members of Greekchat?
The biggest threat to the greek system is ignorance as to what it stands for and what it does. Positive greek life occurs above and beyond the real or alleged crimes against humanity by greeks that people read about.

Kevin previously posted communications points we in greek life need to achieve to foster better understandings of our good works among the uninitiated throng.

Important items to remember, for both greeks and those who wish greeks gone, are that listening to learn works both ways and that speaking is kinder when touched with honey not vinegar.
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  #29  
Old 10-27-2021, 01:56 AM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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This is true!

But about quotas: some chapters have come under pressure lately in the DEI area. Quotas were major failures in the 70s and they will be if instituted now. What happened to freedom of association? I may not agree with some chapters' member choices but they can choose who they want.

And yes, knight shadow, various groups are trying to call the shots for NPC sororities.
True, they *can* choose who they want to associate with, but if the association was sustainable, there wouldn't be a ton of "what's happening to Greek Life!?" articles If folks want to dig their heels in the ground and be immovable, then I'm not sure they have much room to complain about shrinking membership.

Also, I had not seen anything about outsiders trying to call the shots; thanks for the info. Most of what I'd seen on here was members who had resigned. For the outsiders - I suspect the rebuttals to those people would be the same as the "OMG WHY DO YOU PAY FOR FRIENDS!?" people of years past, so they may be a non-factor.
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  #30  
Old 10-27-2021, 02:05 AM
Cookiez17 Cookiez17 is offline
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True, they *can* choose who they want to associate with, but if the association was sustainable, there wouldn't be a ton of "what's happening to Greek Life!?" articles If folks want to dig their heels in the ground and be immovable, then I'm not sure they have much room to complain about shrinking membership.

Also, I had not seen anything about outsiders trying to call the shots; thanks for the info. Most of what I'd seen on here was members who had resigned. For the outsiders - I suspect the rebuttals to those people would be the same as the "OMG WHY DO YOU PAY FOR FRIENDS!?" people of years past, so they may be a non-factor.
Let's just say the pay for friends thing is still being thrown around now. During the time Alabama rush was going viral online, I saw countless comments in that vein.
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