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  #1  
Old 06-24-2016, 01:20 PM
NinjaPoodle NinjaPoodle is offline
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FISHER v. UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN ET AL.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/24/us...exas.html?_r=0

"WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected a challenge to a race-conscious admissions program at the University of Texas at Austin, handing supporters of affirmative action a major victory.

The decision, Fisher v. University of Texas, No. 14-981, concerned an unusual program and contained a warning to other universities that not all affirmative action programs will pass constitutional muster. But the ruling’s basic message was that admissions officials may continue to consider race as one factor among many in ensuring a diverse student body.

The decision, by a 4-to-3 vote, was unexpected. Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, the author of the majority opinion, has long been skeptical of race-sensitive programs and had never before voted to uphold an affirmative action plan. He dissented in the last major affirmative action case.

Supporters of affirmative action hailed the decision as a landmark.

“No decision since Brown v. Board of Education has been as important as Fisher will prove to be in the long history of racial inclusion and educational diversity,” said Laurence H. Tribe, a law professor at Harvard, referring to the Supreme Court’s 1954 decision striking down segregated public schools.

Roger Clegg, the president of the Center for Equal Opportunity, which supports colorblind policies, said the decision, though disappointing, was only a temporary setback.

“The court’s decision leaves plenty of room for future challenges to racial preference policies at other schools,” he said. “The struggle goes on.”

President Obama hailed the decision. “I’m pleased that the Supreme Court upheld the basic notion that diversity is an important value in our society,” he told reporters at the White House. “We are not a country that guarantees equal outcomes, but we do strive to provide an equal shot to everybody.” "

pdf http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...4-981_4g15.pdf


"The University of Texas at Austin (University) uses an undergraduate
admissions system containing two components. First, as required by
the State’s Top Ten Percent Law, it offers admission to any students
who graduate from a Texas high school in the top 10% of their class.

It then fills the remainder of its incoming freshman class, some 25%,
by combining an applicant’s “Academic Index”—the student’s SAT
score and high school academic performance—with the applicant’s
“Personal Achievement Index,” a holistic review containing numerous
factors, including race. The University adopted its current admissions
process in 2004, after a year-long-study of its admissions process—undertaken
in the wake of Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U. S. 306,
and Gratz v. Bollinger, 539 U. S. 244—led it to conclude that its prior
race-neutral system did not reach its goal of providing the educational
benefits of diversity to its undergraduate students.
Petitioner Abigail Fisher, who was not in the top 10% of her high
school class
, was denied admission to the University’s 2008 freshman
class"

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:44 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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What I hear as a concern from educators there: this policy is sending unprepared people of all races to UT.
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  #3  
Old 06-25-2016, 02:32 PM
sigmadiva sigmadiva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation View Post
What I hear as a concern from educators there: this policy is sending unprepared people of all races to UT.
That's because it's a K-12 problem. ALL colleges and universities in Texas pull from the same body of potential students coming out of Texas public high schools.

IMHO the issues stems from the TEA, Texas Education Agency, that sets the academic standards for K-12 public schools. And, the disconnect that TEA has with the THECB, Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board, that sets the academic standards for public colleges and universities.

Over the years the TEA has lowered the passing score for the state mandated tests. Over the years the state mandated tests has gone by many names - TAKS, TEAMS, TAAS, and now I think it is called STAAR.

Over my years of working in higher ed. we were told we couldn't tell K-12 what to do to best prepare those students for college and university.

And, with NCLB, it has made it harder for K-12 public schools to retain students. So now, K-12 public schools basically have to promote everyone to ensure they will graduate from high school.


As for Ms. Fisher, if she really wanted to get into UT-Austin as a top 10% student, she should have "gamed the system" by transferring to a "lower performing" school for her senior year of high school. It is not unheard of......
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:04 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Well, not only that but let's say you have 30% of some high school in say, Plano, with a deserved GPA of over a 4.0. All could easily excel at Texas or A&M. Then you have some tiny high school out in the sticks somewhere whose--maybe--top 2 kids can do it but the rest will flame out spectacularly in their first semester (not that the Plano kids won't but it won't be due to academic unpreparedness, most likely). I have taught at both kinds of high schools and can picture it so easily.

Texas is shooting itself in the foot two ways. First, with the above scenario. Second, because a lot of these kids want a 4-year big U experience so Texas is losing these kids to other big Southern schools and sometimes they don't return to Texas. I have been openmouthed at the numbers of Texas women on the new member lists at Arkansas, OSU, OU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Auburn, and Bama. Also, a lot of those schools offer fabulous scholarships to the scorned Texans. After all--a lot of the scorned Texans only have a 3.95!
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  #5  
Old 06-25-2016, 06:36 PM
jolene jolene is offline
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Carnation, I see that a lot with UGA. I've seen many high GPA kids (3.8 on a 4.0 scale) with volunteer hours, athletics, extracurriculars, etc get rejected. But Alabama courts these OOS kids with partial or full scholarships. A friend's son is taking advantage of that now. If you live in the Atlanta area, it's very hard to get in UGA because they don't want it to be just a bunch of ATL kids attending and that makes sense & many brainiacs are staying in state due to the HOPE grant.
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  #6  
Old 06-25-2016, 06:38 PM
sigmadiva sigmadiva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation View Post
Well, not only that but let's say you have 30% of some high school in say, Plano, with a deserved GPA of over a 4.0. All could easily excel at Texas or A&M. Then you have some tiny high school out in the sticks somewhere whose--maybe--top 2 kids can do it but the rest will flame out spectacularly in their first semester (not that the Plano kids won't but it won't be due to academic unpreparedness, most likely). I have taught at both kinds of high schools and can picture it so easily.

This would happen anyway, without the top 10% rule. I saw this happening in my own freshman class in 1987.

The top 10% rule is a way to level the playing field since race could no longer be considered a strong admissions factor. And, just because you can get into any school for any reason, that does not mean you will graduate in four years.

Quote:
Texas is shooting itself in the foot two ways. First, with the above scenario. Second, because a lot of these kids want a 4-year big U experience so Texas is losing these kids to other big Southern schools and sometimes they don't return to Texas. I have been openmouthed at the numbers of Texas women on the new member lists at Arkansas, OSU, OU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Auburn, and Bama. Also, a lot of those schools offer fabulous scholarships to the scorned Texans. After all--a lot of the scorned Texans only have a 3.95!
I don't think Texas is shooting itself in the foot for the reason I stated above. If there is anything shooting Texas in the foot, it is the cost of living in Austin which has skyrocketed over the last 10 - 15 years.

And for the NPC orgs at Texas, that is a very small issue. Considering the thousands of students who go there, only a few are interested in joining NPC orgs at Texas. Since we all know it is real hard to get into a NPC sorority at Texas, especially the coveted Big 6, then that is probably the reason so many Texas girls go to other big southern schools.

But, I get it. Go to Texas, join a Big 6 chapter, marry well, preferably a man from a well established native Texas family, and become the hottest Dallas socialite.
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  #7  
Old 06-25-2016, 06:47 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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I'm not sure these girls would have necessarily gone Greek at Texas. They might have joined one of the coveted spirit organizations, for instance. And Austin has a lot to do!

The ones I've talked to have left the state for the big U experience. At a lot of these OOS schools, going Greek is a big deal because they're located in small towns waayy away from tons to do. CoughcoughStarkvilleMS, although I hear it's gotten better.

So the girls who wanted to become Dallas socialites may end up in Birmingham, Baton Rouge, or Atlanta but hey, we all make choices and pray for the best.
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  #8  
Old 06-25-2016, 06:55 PM
sigmadiva sigmadiva is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
I'm not sure these girls would have necessarily gone Greek at Texas. They might have joined one of the coveted spirit organizations, for instance.
True
Quote:

And Austin has a lot to do!
Austin has always had a lot to do. It's just now, for some reason, Austin has become *the* place to live in Texas. UT System can't control the cost of living in Austin.

Quote:
The ones I've talked to have left the state for the big U experience. At a lot of these OOS schools, going Greek is a big deal because they're located in small towns waayy away from tons to do. CoughcoughStarkvilleMS, although I hear it's gotten better.

So the girls who wanted to become Dallas socialites may end up in Birmingham, Baton Rouge, or Atlanta but hey, we all make choices and pray for the best.
This is all well and good, but it really has nothing to do with the Fisher case, unless she wanted to join a NPC or spirit org at Texas.
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2016, 07:18 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Some did but decided to make lemonade from their lemons.

I'm a born-and-bred Texan but moved out to the Southeast meany moons ago. Of course, I'm thrilled about the influx of Texans and so are the NPC chapters! The only people I've known who are upset about it: some girls and moms who've been bemoaning how high the influx of Texans with killer grades and SATs has raised the bar for not only PNMs but for girls who are trying out for coveted honor society spots and say, drill team positions.
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  #10  
Old 07-12-2016, 06:11 PM
AnchorAlum AnchorAlum is offline
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As for Ms. Fisher, if she really wanted to get into UT-Austin as a top 10% student, she should have "gamed the system" by transferring to a "lower performing" school for her senior year of high school. It is not unheard of......[/QUOTE]

BINGO. Several students at strong high schools did just that - my kids graduated from JJ Pearce in the Richardson ISD back in the day and were not in the top 10% - but had several AP classes and scored in the 1250 range under the old SAT. High ACT scores as well and were admitted to EVERY other school they applied to. My Son graduated magna cum laude in finance and economics, has two Masters and is the CFO of a company here in Florida.

They couldn't get better than wait listed at UT which was fine since they were never interested in UT. But the State came up with the top 10% rule to solve the affirmative action predicament. What I am saying is that high schools in the Dallas ISD had kids in the top 10% who barely made 1000 on their SAT and who spent their freshman year in all remedials at UT yet just scraped by.

Kids from Plano and Richardson had high scores, grades, etc. and had to do summer school to get into UT. Many chose not to and went to places like Indiana U., a very good academic school, and were able to graduate just fine. Some kids in our neighborhood transferred to Hillcrest High School so they could get better class rankings, using their grandparents' address to get into the DISD.

UT has freshman retention problems because of the 10% admission rule. Nonetheless, Ms. Fisher has graduated from LSU law and I am sure she's doing very well.

Last edited by AnchorAlum; 07-12-2016 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 07-13-2016, 12:25 AM
Munchkin03 Munchkin03 is offline
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From what I know of the top public schools in Texas, her alma mater was not one. So, it doesn't seem as if there were 10 valedictorians or that the top 10% was filled with kids who were extraordinary.

The long and short of it is that Abigail Fisher was a mediocre (at best) student who thought she was entitled to attend her flagship university. An 1180 SAT? I'm pretty sure I did better than that when we were invited to take the SAT in 7th or 8th grade. UT-Austin is simply entering the league of UVa, Michigan, UNC, UCLA, and Berkeley where just being a "good in-state student" isn't enough. I'm seeing it to some extent at Florida too, as kids who would have been shoo-ins back in the 90s are being denied, as Bright Futures (the lottery scholarship) is keeping the top kids who may have gone OOS right at home.

FWIW, Abigail Fisher did not go to LSU Law--she only got her undergrad from there and is now, interestingly enough, working in Austin.
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  #12  
Old 07-13-2016, 08:47 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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Well, there's more to it than that; unprepared freshmen are coming to UT and flaming out spectacularly. That's why there are those programs that offer an easier transfer admission to sophomores on up.
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  #13  
Old 07-13-2016, 02:38 PM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmadiva View Post
That's because it's a K-12 problem. ALL colleges and universities in Texas pull from the same body of potential students coming out of Texas public high schools.

IMHO the issues stems from the TEA, Texas Education Agency, that sets the academic standards for K-12 public schools. And, the disconnect that TEA has with the THECB, Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board, that sets the academic standards for public colleges and universities.

Over the years the TEA has lowered the passing score for the state mandated tests. Over the years the state mandated tests has gone by many names - TAKS, TEAMS, TAAS, and now I think it is called STAAR.

Over my years of working in higher ed. we were told we couldn't tell K-12 what to do to best prepare those students for college and university.

And, with NCLB, it has made it harder for K-12 public schools to retain students. So now, K-12 public schools basically have to promote everyone to ensure they will graduate from high school.
I'm late, but I agree with all of this.
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Old 07-13-2016, 03:17 PM
aggieAXO aggieAXO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmadiva View Post
This would happen anyway, without the top 10% rule. I saw this happening in my own freshman class in 1987.

The top 10% rule is a way to level the playing field since race could no longer be considered a strong admissions factor. And, just because you can get into any school for any reason, that does not mean you will graduate in four years.



I don't think Texas is shooting itself in the foot for the reason I stated above. If there is anything shooting Texas in the foot, it is the cost of living in Austin which has skyrocketed over the last 10 - 15 years.

And for the NPC orgs at Texas, that is a very small issue. Considering the thousands of students who go there, only a few are interested in joining NPC orgs at Texas. Since we all know it is real hard to get into a NPC sorority at Texas, especially the coveted Big 6, then that is probably the reason so many Texas girls go to other big southern schools.

But, I get it. Go to Texas, join a Big 6 chapter, marry well, preferably a man from a well established native Texas family, and become the hottest Dallas socialite.
I agree - Austin is getting too expensive which will drive some of its current residents out, but everyday I see more and more out of state license plates so they will just be replaced (sadly IMO). My home value has gone up a substantial amount (well for me) which is great but the taxes are also going up and this will force me to sell my house in a couple of years.

And to the comment above about her poor SAT score-I performed very poorly on the SAT but I was a very good student. I feel the SAT has no prediction on how a student will do in college. I went to college with merit scholarship recipients that had very high SAT scores and they barely made it through undergrad. Not that they were not smart, quite the opposite, but they did not know how to study. I finished my undergrad requirements in three years and was accepted to vet. school early. I feel the same about the ACT for grad school. Again, I did not have a great GRE score but my undergrad grades were very good. During my vet school interview the poor score was mentioned and I had to explain that I was not very good with that type of testing. I did very well in vet school despite the poor GRE score.

Last edited by aggieAXO; 07-13-2016 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Not ACT but GRE
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  #15  
Old 07-13-2016, 03:52 PM
Ag_Sis Ag_Sis is offline
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So the girls who wanted to become Dallas socialites may end up in Birmingham, Baton Rouge, or Atlanta but hey, we all make choices and pray for the best.
I actually think that the Texas girls who wanted to become socialites stay in-state and attend the private schools like TCU, SMU, Baylor, etc. IME I've found the girls who go OOS to big SEC schools to be more open to broadening their horizons, though I do know of a few who pledged a sorority in big SEC school only to try and transfer back to UT-Austin.

About the Abigail Fisher thing - the CAP program exists because UT-Austin officials are well aware that many auto-admits will crash and burn their Freshman year. You spend a year at another college in the UT system (excluding UT-Dallas I believe) and as long as your GPA is above a 2.5 or 3.0, you are automatically admitted into UT-Austin.

IMO, everything sort of balances out in the end. My older brother has friends who didn't have the "grades" to get into UT-Austin and ended up going to TCU, Tulane, Austin College, OU, etc., made good grades, and are currently attending UT Law and Baylor Medical School.

UT-Austin's actually moved away from the top 10% rule and only auto-admits the top 8%, leaving more room for "qualified" applicants. A&M uses the top 10% rule as well, but it has an additional auto-admit in which if you are top 25% and have at least an SAT of 1300 or ACT of 30, it's automatic acceptance.
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