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  #121  
Old 12-01-2014, 03:32 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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While the FIPG certainly asserts constructive policies to address alcohol abuse within fraternity chapters, I think those very critical of the entire Greek system have personally seen that the fraternities are not walking the walk. CYA activities are not going to fool anyone.

HOW, specifically, are individual chapters going to enforce these policies? HOW are the fraternities going to proactively protect these young women? HOW are fraternity brothers going to demonstrate that they take these policies seriously backed up with action, not words? HOW are they demonstrating that they value women?

Until the behavior of fraternity brothers consistently changes, there will be no change in the public perception.
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  #122  
Old 12-01-2014, 03:49 PM
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thetalady thetalady is offline
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Curious about what GC members think.... do sororities continue to flourish or exist without a fraternity system? NPC Sororities are not causing the problems, but we seem to be gathered up in the condemnation of the Greek system. For that matter, is there any impact on NPHC or MCG orgs?
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  #123  
Old 12-01-2014, 04:45 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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I think much depends on why young women join a sorority. If it is for the greater association with the men in fraternities and their parties, then I think that the demise of fraternities would affect some recruitments in some sororities.

Back in my day -50 years ago!- the sororities certainly flourished with far fewer ties to the fraternities. We joined up with one fraternity to give a Christmas party for local orphans. And the fraternities sponsored a women, most often a Greek, for Homecoming Queen. And we all participated in Greek Week in the spring with many intermurals and the like.

What we did NOT have were frequent mixers, events where alcohol was served on campus. Women were not allowed in the fraternity houses, nor were the men allowed in ours. And that was very firmly enforced. Larger and more formal fraternity parties with alcohol being served were held in hotels in a neighboring large city. There was also a large and dark nightspot in this same city with live music that served alcohol that many of us went to on the weekends, often with a borrowed ID from a sister.

Many sorority women of course dated, became pinned to, and married fraternity men. But many did not. Same thing with the men in fraternities.

My campus certainly had a party culture that involved the fraternities, but it was very tame and not a prominent feature of life within a sorority. There was one exception with close ties to one fraternity that would have been more profoundly affected without the tie to that fraternity. But not so with all the other sororities on my campus.

It is very likely very different today.
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  #124  
Old 12-01-2014, 06:38 PM
exlurker exlurker is offline
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A recent article on nbcnews.com about some steps that UVA will be taking.................

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...roblem-n259326

And here's an article reporting that some Virginia legislators intend to introduce bills dealing with campus rapes:

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/lawm...-laws/30006834

Last edited by exlurker; 12-01-2014 at 06:48 PM.
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  #125  
Old 12-01-2014, 07:19 PM
TSteven TSteven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetalady View Post
Curious about what GC members think.... do sororities continue to flourish or exist without a fraternity system? NPC Sororities are not causing the problems, but we seem to be gathered up in the condemnation of the Greek system. For that matter, is there any impact on NPHC or MCG orgs?
The legal folk should be able to address this.

Aren't there federal laws that state that the university must provide all students - regardless of sex - the right to equal campus activities? (I know the wording is off.) What I mean is, does a university that allows GLOs for one sex have to allow GLOs for the other sex? If so, then it seems that the university would not be able to ban male-only GLOs while allowin female-only ones.
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  #126  
Old 12-02-2014, 08:20 AM
KDMafia KDMafia is offline
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I think that sororities could survive without fraternities although I'd imagine we'd see their scope and size change depending on the campus climate. Could fraternities survive without houses? What if, instead of removing the orgs, they removed the housing? I am from and work on a campus that has both housed and unhoused fraternities and it seems to have little bearing on recruitment for the fraternities.
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  #127  
Old 12-02-2014, 08:22 AM
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Have there been credible studies done to measure the difference in assault rates on campuses without a Greek system?
Studies have been done.. whether they are credible is up for debate.
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  #128  
Old 12-02-2014, 08:37 AM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by 1964Alum View Post
While the FIPG certainly asserts constructive policies to address alcohol abuse within fraternity chapters, I think those very critical of the entire Greek system have personally seen that the fraternities are not walking the walk. CYA activities are not going to fool anyone.
Expecting college kids not to drink, period, is an unreasonable expectation. NPC groups have avoided a lot of liability by allowing fraternities to assume a lot of it. Things like dry housing also come with a lot of unintended consequences. Alcohol.edu is actually a pretty good program and ensures that members at least have access to information before making poor life choices. Are 18/19 year olds going to still make poor life choices? Of course.

Quote:
HOW, specifically, are individual chapters going to enforce these policies? HOW are the fraternities going to proactively protect these young women? HOW are fraternity brothers going to demonstrate that they take these policies seriously backed up with action, not words? HOW are they demonstrating that they value women?
In 99% of our chapters, there is absolutely nothing wrong. We are talking about a small minority of problem chapters.. and as we saw with schools like UVA, both Pike and Sigma Nu were proactive. Before anything serious happened, those chapters (Pike's Alpha chapter and Sigma Nu's Beta chapter) were shut down. Some national groups probably do a better job of taking the initiative and some groups are a little hamstrung by their own legislative processes seeing as this was an issue which was suddenly huge on the radar, many of us can't react in a huge way until our major legislative assemblies take place.

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Until the behavior of fraternity brothers consistently changes, there will be no change in the public perception.
That's a little offensive. This issue, kind of like school shootings, kind of like terrorist attacks, etc., while real and while needing to be addressed is not nearly so pervasive as your above sentence would suggest. Fraternity chapters are not consistently places where women can expect to be raped. The problem is real, but let's not blow it out of proportion.
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Last edited by Kevin; 12-02-2014 at 10:09 AM.
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  #129  
Old 12-02-2014, 11:35 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by thetalady View Post
Curious about what GC members think.... do sororities continue to flourish or exist without a fraternity system? NPC Sororities are not causing the problems, but we seem to be gathered up in the condemnation of the Greek system.
I disagree. NPC sororities are not causing the problem, but certain things they do are enabling it.

-Sororities continue to socialize and support fraternities that are well-known to act like a-holes (this isn't just rape, this is a host of other things) if they are "popular" enough. Men will continue to join a fraternity that engages in questionable practices if it's known that attractive women hang out there.

-The prohibition on alcohol in NPC groups' housing makes sorority women dependent on men for a social space. Most of the time, this ends up meaning fraternities. It's an attitude from the 50s - the 1850s - and it needs to be scuttled. Putting the hosting ability in women's hands means men that engage in unpleasant practices won't be welcome. (Saying this as someone who has thrown a-hole men out of her house) As long as women are seen as "unable" to handle alcohol in their houses - by their own sisters - it'll breed a patriarchal and unequal atmosphere.
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  #130  
Old 12-02-2014, 11:41 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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There was also a large and dark nightspot in this same city with live music that served alcohol that many of us went to on the weekends, often with a borrowed ID from a sister.
This is another huge part of the problem. The 21 year old drinking age makes fraternity houses the only place for the majority of college students to socialize - when in reality, they'd sometimes probably be safer at a bar, even a dive bar. The problem is places just can't look the other way as far as fake IDs and such anymore. The stakes are too high.
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  #131  
Old 12-02-2014, 12:19 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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-The prohibition on alcohol in NPC groups' housing makes sorority women dependent on men for a social space.
I'm not so sure... I even buy the premise that it should not be difficult to convince men not to rape women. I think it's an incredibly reasonable proposition.
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  #132  
Old 12-02-2014, 12:56 PM
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thetalady thetalady is offline
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Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
-The prohibition on alcohol in NPC groups' housing makes sorority women dependent on men for a social space. Most of the time, this ends up meaning fraternities. It's an attitude from the 50s - the 1850s - and it needs to be scuttled. Putting the hosting ability in women's hands means men that engage in unpleasant practices won't be welcome. (Saying this as someone who has thrown a-hole men out of her house) As long as women are seen as "unable" to handle alcohol in their houses - by their own sisters - it'll breed a patriarchal and unequal atmosphere.
I hate to ask this question, but I will do it anyway.... WHY is alcohol allowed in fraternity houses, ESPECIALLY those that are on campus? Is it the "I would rather that they drink at home" justification? Alcohol seems to be at the root of many of these incidents.
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  #133  
Old 12-02-2014, 02:05 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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The problem is real, but let's not blow it out of proportion.
Way too late, that train has already left the station and is barreling down the tracks.

Some reporters have finally started using their critical thinking skills and are raising some questions about the Rolling Stone allegations. It won't matter. The author has even responded by stated that we shouldn't concern ourselves with the facts, it's the overarching theme that's important.
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  #134  
Old 12-02-2014, 02:12 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Way too late, that train has already left the station and is barreling down the tracks.
It's up to each of on our own campuses to get in front of the issue then, even if leadership from our HQs or the FIPG isn't really there.

I'm personally going to make a point of reaching out to my officers and to our Greek Life office to see what kind of sexual abuse/domestic violence prevention programs we are utilizing on campus and I'd like to make sure that we have programs in place to educate students and to encourage victims to come forward and deal with the issues which will happen.

A lot of campuses have "that" house and it's high time we start identifying those chapters and dealing with them more proactively and aggressively when their HQs refuse to in order that we don't all suffer for something their members do.
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  #135  
Old 12-02-2014, 02:28 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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It's up to each of on our own campuses to get in front of the issue then, even if leadership from our HQs or the FIPG isn't really there.

I'm personally going to make a point of reaching out to my officers and to our Greek Life office to see what kind of sexual abuse/domestic violence prevention programs we are utilizing on campus and I'd like to make sure that we have programs in place to educate students and to encourage victims to come forward and deal with the issues which will happen.

A lot of campuses have "that" house and it's high time we start identifying those chapters and dealing with them more proactively and aggressively when their HQs refuse to in order that we don't all suffer for something their members do.
I have no quarrel with this, it's a very common sense approach to a specific problem. The issue I have is the ever expanding definition of the problem (which is a direct result of blowing the problem out of proportion). I've read some of the cases that have gotten some high profile media attention....not just the media version, but the actual case records where available. In so many of them, the facts are the same. Two very drunk (but not incapacitated) students having sex that they probably wouldn't have if they were stone cold sober. I'm not sure how education is going to change that. And it's a very different problem than the much more rare problem of the predator who uses alcohol in a deliberate way to facilitate sexual assaults. But the fear mongers are treating them exactly the same.
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