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  #106  
Old 11-26-2014, 04:24 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by Low D Flat View Post
Basically, the law requires coed schools to maintain environments where women have equal access to education. If women are being run off campus, harassed, in fear, etc. due to the prevalence of rape and other kinds of abuse at the hands of their classmates, then they don't have equal access to education at that school. It's no different, from a legal perspective, from a school that requires all the women to take Home Ec and doesn't allow them to major in physics.

This is not just in education law; this is the theory that applies in workplaces, too. If you're being sexually harassed at work, then as far as the institution's responsibility is concerned, it doesn't matter whether it's your co-worker or the CEO that's harassing you. If the bosses know that the environment is toxic and discriminatory, and they don't act to fix it, they're in violation of the law.
That seems awfully subjective for a statute that is so concerned with sheer numbers. Say a large number of women leave a school, one of them because of a sexual assault, but the remainder because a formerly all male school nearby has finally opened up to women and it has a better academic reputation. Can that one woman attempt to say this is a title IX violation?

This just doesn't make sense to me - it's like piggybacking one thing on top of another and the 2 things really don't mesh.
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  #107  
Old 11-26-2014, 04:33 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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And also - if UVA really is as full of cavemen as is suggested, I can't imagine it's a very safe or welcoming place for gay men either. What statute can they use? Wouldn't it be better to compel the university to change by using laws that say there has to be a safe environment for everyone, regardless of genitalia?
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  #108  
Old 11-26-2014, 10:32 AM
Low D Flat Low D Flat is offline
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Ah -- there is no federal statute banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in either education or employment. There are state and local laws in some places. But where those laws don't exist, it's perfectly legal for a school to expel a student or for a boss to fire an employee for being gay.

The Title IX violation doesn't depend on women leaving the school. That's just an extreme example of how a discriminatory environment can interfere with access to education. If men get to walk around feeling safe and women don't, and the school doesn't make any effort to change that, that's potentially a Title IX violation, too. But there has to be pretty powerful evidence before any federal agency will sanction a school. Just a pattern of women enrolling and leaving wouldn't do it.
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  #109  
Old 11-26-2014, 01:10 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by Low D Flat View Post
But there has to be pretty powerful evidence before any federal agency will sanction a school. Just a pattern of women enrolling and leaving wouldn't do it.
That's my point. It seems like throwing Title IX around is kind of silly when you pretty much have to have the equivalent of a herd of elephants in the room to get anything to stick.
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  #110  
Old 11-26-2014, 01:17 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
Some rape survivors (and organizations that address sexual assault and rape) advocate and advise reporting to police and the legal system. Doing so is usually an overall bad experience but it is typically considered necessary. Even if it is often ineffective for some individuals it can be effective in bringing attention to the issue and giving a larger voice.

Examples: https://rainn.org/get-information/le...reporting-rape

There are far more accounts of why people do not report rapes to the police but it isn't the case that all rape victims would advise other rape victims to not report rape to the police.
Yes, but that's a little different from mandatory reporting, which is how I had read things upthread. The problem is taking the choice away from the survivor; they should be able to go to the university and say they need support without the university automatically going to LE.

All that said, I overstepped, because someone who reported to the university and had a terrible experience would very likely want the university out of it and LE in. Of course, either entity can totally f*ck it up, as we've seen at UVA, and recently in the city of New Orleans.

I was trying to think about what an ideal system would look like, and I don't really know, except that it needs to be centered around the survivor and what they want.
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  #111  
Old 11-26-2014, 01:33 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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I see what you mean. There is no ideal system.

I think the people who want it to be reported are speaking in terms of whichever method is most fair and less stressful for the accuser and the accused (of course, not everyone is concerned with fairness and stress of the accused). This is so complex and what works for one situation may not work for another situation.
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  #112  
Old 11-26-2014, 04:34 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Isn't that part of what local rape crisis centers do? In other words, they may know the local police has a record of being corrupt and lazy but the university (or company, if it's a sexual harassment in the workplace issue) is super proactive, or vice versa? And then they can advise the survivor accordingly as to who to go to?

Keep in mind I'm coming at this as someone who lives in the midst of what is a rather arcane system of boroughs and townships and it can be a game of knowing which table to play, so to speak, in legal matters in general.
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  #113  
Old 11-26-2014, 05:58 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Sometimes it works like that.
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  #114  
Old 11-26-2014, 07:50 PM
exlurker exlurker is offline
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Ali Vitali – a Pi Phi* and a Tulane alumna -- comments on the UVA situation, a Greek life issues concerning rape and other sexual assaults, and her own -- revised -- view. She is on the MSNBC staff, so naturally her remarks are on an MSNBC site:

http://www.msnbc.com/krystal-clear/c...n-fraternities

*she mentions her arrow necklace
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  #115  
Old 11-29-2014, 05:15 PM
exlurker exlurker is offline
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Fairly long Washington Post story on the UVA situation / allegations:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...984_story.html

“. . . ‘ the fraternity system probably has one chance to fix itself,' Wright said. 'If we don’t get this right, people are going to ask for fraternities to be banned, and they are going to have a point.’ "

-------- Quote from the story ^^; according to the story, Paul Wright is a UVA alumnus and a Chi Psi; he serves on his fraternity’s national board.
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  #116  
Old 11-29-2014, 06:48 PM
pinksequins pinksequins is offline
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Exlurker, my phone is not being cooperative but is taking forever to open the link. Is this the Post article from today that looks at the journalist author of the article? If not, do please post today's article also -- very illuminating.
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  #117  
Old 11-29-2014, 07:42 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exlurker View Post
Fairly long Washington Post story on the UVA situation / allegations:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...984_story.html

“. . . ‘ the fraternity system probably has one chance to fix itself,' Wright said. 'If we don’t get this right, people are going to ask for fraternities to be banned, and they are going to have a point.’ "

-------- Quote from the story ^^; according to the story, Paul Wright is a UVA alumnus and a Chi Psi; he serves on his fraternity’s national board.
Alumni, faculty members, and students are ALREADY calling for a ban on fraternities at UVA. Mothers of young men are chiming into the chorus as they don't want their sons in this kind of environment. I agree that if they can't find a way to get it right, their days will be numbered.

What has been revealed at UVA is also rippling across the country. I talked with a cousin in Florida yesterday who said that a very common discussion topic there are very similar events which are happening in Florida schools.

IMO the Greek community can't afford to fail to take this very seriously indeed.
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  #118  
Old 12-01-2014, 10:21 AM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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I think the thing that Greeks don't really seem to understand yet is that the recent push for universities all over the country to take sexual assaults on campus seriously/be more proactive about them is going to have huge ramifications on the Greek system (even without stories like this one coming out, but it certainly doesn't help). Regardless of whether or not you believe the statistics are legit when they suggest that fraternity men are more likely to sexual assault someone than non-fraternity men--Greeks are a conspicuous target and one that is much easier to engage with on this issue than the college community as a whole, so they're going to be a linchpin in these discussions.

Already, the number of universities who have been willing this year to push these temporary bans into place suggest that schools are prepared to take more drastic steps than they previously had been, and that will continue to escalate as more and more of them are being held legally responsible for student deaths and assaults. The Greek community needs to show that it's open to taking steps to decrease the rates of campus sexual assaults if they want to have any chance of surviving over the next few decades--I don't think Greeks seem to understand how close some campuses are to a permanent ban or drastic reform of the system right now (UVA included, but they're certainly not the only ones). It's bizarre to me that so many people on this board seem incapable of recognizing that we're in the midst of a momentous change in campus culture right now, and that Greeks will suffer serious ramifications from it if they can't show that they're able to change along with it.
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  #119  
Old 12-01-2014, 01:15 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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That the FIPG is not front and center and taking steps to educate and reduce our liability exposure is troubling. We need to all recognize what sugar and spice just said is the absolute truth and be prepared to either change or prepare to function as off-campus clubs exercising our Constitutional rights of peaceful assembly.

Seeing that the common entity between us who has a direct financial incentive to help us reduce our liability is the FIPG, can we really tolerate them not being MUCH more proactive on this issue? We at least need someone out there telling our side of the story--i.e., that while the results of some studies are bad, they are not without their flaws and that the vast majority of our chapters are not the sorts of places where anyone is at risk of being sexually assaulted.
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  #120  
Old 12-01-2014, 03:28 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugar and spice View Post
I think the thing that Greeks don't really seem to understand yet is that the recent push for universities all over the country to take sexual assaults on campus seriously/be more proactive about them is going to have huge ramifications on the Greek system (even without stories like this one coming out, but it certainly doesn't help). Regardless of whether or not you believe the statistics are legit when they suggest that fraternity men are more likely to sexual assault someone than non-fraternity men--Greeks are a conspicuous target and one that is much easier to engage with on this issue than the college community as a whole, so they're going to be a linchpin in these discussions.

Already, the number of universities who have been willing this year to push these temporary bans into place suggest that schools are prepared to take more drastic steps than they previously had been, and that will continue to escalate as more and more of them are being held legally responsible for student deaths and assaults. The Greek community needs to show that it's open to taking steps to decrease the rates of campus sexual assaults if they want to have any chance of surviving over the next few decades--I don't think Greeks seem to understand how close some campuses are to a permanent ban or drastic reform of the system right now (UVA included, but they're certainly not the only ones). It's bizarre to me that so many people on this board seem incapable of recognizing that we're in the midst of a momentous change in campus culture right now, and that Greeks will suffer serious ramifications from it if they can't show that they're able to change along with it.
Have there been credible studies done to measure the difference in assault rates on campuses without a Greek system?
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