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  #76  
Old 11-24-2014, 11:09 AM
cinder1965 cinder1965 is offline
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Originally Posted by amIblue? View Post
What aoiwen needs to realize is that GC posters are supporters and cheerleaders of Greek Life. We are not the anti-Greek members of the public. If you find the need to defend the manner in which UVA mishandles allegations of rape, then you need to consider how egregious the circumstances are. I've said it before, but it is not up to any university to adjudicate any felony. There should be no such thing as a sexual misconduct board because these issues need to be handled by the legal system.

Agree. It is like school systems are not permitted to adjudicate sexually misconduct against a child by a teacher. They have to call the police, report and let the legal system address it.
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  #77  
Old 11-24-2014, 11:13 AM
cinder1965 cinder1965 is offline
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Originally Posted by PinkSkyAtNight View Post
I truly, honestly wish this statement were 100% true for all sororities. However, in my experience, on two occasions I saw sorority sisters comfort each other after sexual assault. However when the mention of going forward to any authority was mentioned, the discussion immediately became about potential fallout -- particularly in one instance where it involved a "popular" fraternity. What is described in that article sounds like a culture that was similar to my campus.

Ten years later, I have deep regret and shame that I didn't speak up and encourage one of my friends to pursue charges. I didn't discourage her, but rather, I was just extremely passive.

I've been thinking a lot about this article this week, and it made me take a long, hard look at how I may have contributed to this kind of problem, just by simply being unresponsive. That in itself can send a message to a victim that they should remain silent.

It would be really idealistic and almost naive to think all sorority sisters boldly stand up for their sisters when rape happens, especially when it involves fraternities. I'm not pointing fingers, I just think this is a serious call to action for everyone, everywhere.

Great post. I, too, have been going over in my mind if any of my sisters experienced this and I didn't realize it because at that age I didn't have the skills to notice or to ask questions.
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  #78  
Old 11-24-2014, 11:20 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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I think some of this goes back to the "cool girl who makes no fuss".

When I was in college I knew women in a few sororities who made sure they were never a naysayer because doing so would ruin their image with the men (especially fraternities) as a "laid back, fun, homie."

If there was ever an altercation between members of a sorority and members of a fraternity, some of these women tried to play the middle.
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  #79  
Old 11-24-2014, 11:29 AM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by amIblue? View Post
I've said it before, but it is not up to any university to adjudicate any felony. There should be no such thing as a sexual misconduct board because these issues need to be handled by the legal system.
Very often where there are cases of he said vs. she said and there's no physical evidence (as is often the case), guilty beyond a reasonable doubt isn't something a lot of prosecutors are confident they can achieve. These are mostly kids who have the sorts of families who can hire good criminal defense attorneys who would typically be able to beat a lot of these kinds of cases where we just have the alleged victim's word.

That's why these Title IX panels were created in the first place. Sometimes the criminal justice system doesn't work.

Now I've read about cases (one might be this one) where the perp actually admitted to the tribunal that he raped or sexually assaulted someone and he was rewarded for his candor. That is particularly absurd. If the perp admits guilt, that needs to go straight to the police.

I am still squeamish about these Title IX panels and have my doubts as to the constitutionality of how they are conducted and especially as to the qualifications of the adjudicators of those tribunals, but I understand the good intentions behind them.
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  #80  
Old 11-24-2014, 11:50 AM
Nanners52674 Nanners52674 is offline
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I don't like how in interview clips I've seen UVA administrators seeming to place all the blame on Greek life. Yes Greek life is a big part of the problem, but it's just as important to focus on the administration and the University system as a whole. I get a feeling of UVA passing the buck.

Sexual assaults happen at schools without Greek life. Sexual assault happens at house parties, the bar, friends apartments etc...
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  #81  
Old 11-24-2014, 11:57 AM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Both Pike and Sigma Nu shut down their chapters in advance of this. You don't have chapters voluntarily shutting down their Alpha chapters (Pike) and Beta chapters (Sigma Nu) unless they believe there are other options.

I don't believe a competent administrator can see those things happening around them and conclude there is no cause for concern. I know that governing bodies of fraternities around the country are going to really be talking about this issue over the next year. I expect some major initiatives.
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  #82  
Old 11-24-2014, 12:44 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Both Pike and Sigma Nu shut down their chapters in advance of this. You don't have chapters voluntarily shutting down their Alpha chapters (Pike) and Beta chapters (Sigma Nu) unless they believe there are other options.

I don't believe a competent administrator can see those things happening around them and conclude there is no cause for concern. I know that governing bodies of fraternities around the country are going to really be talking about this issue over the next year. I expect some major initiatives.
I thought those shut downs were over hazing violations?
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  #83  
Old 11-24-2014, 01:06 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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They were the kinds of hazing violations which don't usually result in the shutting down of a chapter. In the case of Pi Kappa Alpha's Alpha chapter, pledges were forced to take bites from a raw onion while being showered with various condiments. In Sigma Nu's case, there was some excessive forced physical exercise. I didn't think either case was particularly extreme.
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  #84  
Old 11-24-2014, 01:14 PM
candygirl200413 candygirl200413 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nanners52674 View Post
I don't like how in interview clips I've seen UVA administrators seeming to place all the blame on Greek life. Yes Greek life is a big part of the problem, but it's just as important to focus on the administration and the University system as a whole. I get a feeling of UVA passing the buck.

Sexual assaults happen at schools without Greek life. Sexual assault happens at house parties, the bar, friends apartments etc...
thank you SO much for saying this! the amount of people on my newsfeed blaming only greek life for fostering this behavior is crazy. Yes some of it is part of the problem, but there is SO much more involved!
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  #85  
Old 11-24-2014, 02:51 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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Originally Posted by cinder1965 View Post
Agree. It is like school systems are not permitted to adjudicate sexually misconduct against a child by a teacher. They have to call the police, report and let the legal system address it.
And they don't fire the teacher? Yes, yes they do. Institutions other than the legal system have their own rule sets and enforce consequences all of the time.
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  #86  
Old 11-24-2014, 05:03 PM
TriDeltaSallie TriDeltaSallie is offline
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Originally Posted by aoiwen View Post
As a current student at UVA and a member of Greek Life, I would like to share some information with you all.

First off, all fraternal organization agreements between the university and chapters have been suspended until January 9th. Both sorority and fraternities have FOAs meaning that both were suspended at the same time via an email the president shared with students. I have a mixed opinion about this. The University was “damned if they do, damned if they didn’t.” The administration had to do something and they had to do it immediately. Do I think this was the right thing? Absolutely not. Do I have a better idea? Unfortunately not. Both fraternities and sororities function as more than just social organizations. Greek life provides comfort and a safe place for victims of sexual misconduct. For this reason, I am at least thankful that they continued to allow meetings of Greek organizations within the houses. I further do not agree with this move because they are punishing a whole group of individuals for the wrong doing of others. The events described in the RS article happened two years ago and thus there was no immediate threat that the ENTIRE Greek community imposed to anyone.

Second, this is not just a problem at UVA. To say UVA has a problem, that has become very obvious and needs immediate attention. But to say this is only a problem at UVA is very wrong and very far from the truth. This is a problem across all colleges, all genders, and both involved with Greek life and not.

Here are some points that you need to take into consideration before jumping to conclusions:
- Title IX and Due process have hindered the University (all colleges, actually) on responding to these reports of sexual misconduct
- At UVa, there are several routes that students may take in pursuing justice against their attacker: first they can go through the University and the sexual misconduct board AND/OR do so criminally through the police
- When going through the sexual misconduct board: there are HUGE problems with this that are hard to address because of Title IX and due process; basically, if the defendant is found “not guilty” through this process, he/she can then go and sue the survivor for defamation since this is not a court of law. When deciding the best route for survivors, this is tough because they could then face damages even though they are the victim. The benefits of this are that evidence need not be beyond a reasonable doubt, but that it is likely that it happened (basically there is at least a 51% chance the sexual misconduct occurred).
- Survivors can also go through a criminal process – this is often hard and takes a long time; it also requires a lot of evidence; often times survivors don’t seek immediate medical attention and evidence is lost; there need be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt for justice to be served to the defendant
- What I believe is the best route: survivors can file a civil case. Usually civil cases are settled before they ever go to court (>90%). You might think “But what is money going to solve?” In these settlements, survivors can put theoretically any clause in the agreement that he/she finds necessary and since you are settling outside of court, the defendant must agree to it, or it would proceed to court. For example, the survivor could include a clause that the defendant no longer attend said school. The defendant must attend therapy once a week. The defendant owes $X to victim. And more often than not, these civil cases have privacy clauses so you never hear about them, ever. Defendants are often way more willing to settle outside of court if they know they have done wrong because going through the court process is very, very expensive (way more than the cost of settling).
- The next topic of discussion that has been wide at UVA of late is why are students expelled for honor offenses (such as cheating) but no students have ever been expelled for sexual misconduct? In short, honor and sexual misconduct are two separate things since Honor at UVA is an entirely run student organization that punishes people on the basis of beyond a reasonable doubt and the Sexual Misconduct Board is not a student run organization that punishes that it likely happened. Last year UVA's honor system was amended and students now can admit to making an honor offense before going to trial with a 1 year suspension.

I obviously only know such much but it is crucial to see this past the University of Virginia. This is a huge problem everywhere and the changes need to take place within the laws. I’m still learning more and reading more and finding out more from my peers, but above is what I believe to be true.

Here are a few links that you may find interesting:

Interview with Dean Eramo: http://wuvaonline.com/exclusive-inte...exual-assault/

Student Council website in response to the article (IMO, very well constructed): http://www.uvastudentcouncil.com/rollingstone/
I realize you love your school, but I fear it is blinding you to the realities.

UVA is a horribly dysfunctional place. By any standard. Period.

Rugby Road? I've been around a long time and I've never heard anything remotely like that associated with any other campus. Anywhere.

This is what makes a gentleman from Virginia?

The sick irony of a honor code that sees students regularly expelled for cheating while rapists run free on the campus FOR DECADES is beyond appalling.

This is on the same level as Penn State. PSU was worse because minors were involved. UVA is worse because EVERYONE knew it was going on for DECADES and no one did anything about it. And not only did they do nothing about it, they REPEATEDLY discouraged women from reporting to the police.

And I don't believe one word coming out of the mouths of campus and state leadership. They ALL knew no matter how aghast they act now. The ONLY reason they are even talking about it is because the story went national and they cannot sweep it under the rug any longer. If there was no RS article, women would still be getting raped this weekend in fraternity houses.

That's reality.
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  #87  
Old 11-24-2014, 05:50 PM
exlurker exlurker is offline
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. . . . Now I've read about cases (one might be this one) where the perp actually admitted to the tribunal that he raped or sexually assaulted someone and he was rewarded for his candor. That is particularly absurd. If the perp admits guilt, that needs to go straight to the police.

I am still squeamish about these Title IX panels and have my doubts as to the constitutionality of how they are conducted and especially as to the qualifications of the adjudicators of those tribunals, but I understand the good intentions behind them.
Kevin, is this one of the reports you read? The story deals with the "particularly absurd" rewarding of a perp who admits to what he has done:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...e-not-expelled
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  #88  
Old 11-24-2014, 06:22 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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ITA with you, TriDeltaSallie. As a starter, UVA needs to stop referring to " Sexual Misconduct" and call is what it is, "Criminal Felony Rape." This is so beyond the pale and so far afield from anything I have ever heard of it's like another universe to me.
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  #89  
Old 11-24-2014, 06:34 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Kevin, is this one of the reports you read? The story deals with the "particularly absurd" rewarding of a perp who admits to what he has done:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...e-not-expelled
That Eramo person is Exhibit A of why Title IX is a complete freakin' joke. Here's a lady who has little to no legal training who is in charge of making a quasi-judicial determination. She has no business doing that.

And the kids in these situations.. this guy just admitted whatever he admitted and it's basically up to the school to determine what if any consequences there will be.

As far as sharing information with law enforcement, a lot of what occurs in these investigations is going to fall under FERPA, so absent me not knowing something, this is kind of an unintended consequence of FERPA and should probably be looked at by Congress.
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  #90  
Old 11-24-2014, 06:57 PM
TriDeltaSallie TriDeltaSallie is offline
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Originally Posted by 1964Alum View Post
ITA with you, TriDeltaSallie. As a starter, UVA needs to stop referring to " Sexual Misconduct" and call is what it is, "Criminal Felony Rape."
THIS.

I watched the video of Eramo and wanted to throw something at the screen every time she said sexual misconduct.

IT IS CRIMINAL FELONY RAPE.

In the real world, people rot in prison for years for this.

At UVA when they run into classmate they just raped over the weekend they tell her that they had a great time with her.

SICK. SICK. SICK.
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