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  #196  
Old 12-04-2014, 08:56 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1964Alum View Post
This DOES happen! There was an incident on the news just the other day about a woman who was attacked just this way. Of course I "get it". Rape can and does take place in many, many different situations. But I also "get" having some common sense about what kinds of situations you expose yourself to as a woman. And what the attendant risks are. Also what self-protective measures we as women can take. IMO to think otherwise is very naive and unrealistic.
I didn't mean you, I meant if the mother thinks her daughter is covered solely by having a police whistle and pepper spray, she's deluding herself. All women need to know how to combat the physical, mental and emotional forms of assault.
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  #197  
Old 12-04-2014, 09:45 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
This is an unfortunate discussion.

I hope people realize that men also precipitate (which isn't victim blaming) their own victimization as well as precipitating many circumstances in which they are accused of crimes. Yet and still, people tend not to preach to men about the behaviors that increase the likelihood of such incidents.

But people love to preach to women. It is absolutely sickening.
I don't see it as gender based. Of course men precipitate their own victimization, in lots of ways. Who doesn't think that?

It IS possible to view a victim (male or female) with empathy while simultaneously recognizing what they could do differently to avoid becoming a victim. How do humans ever learn from their mistakes otherwise if it's out of bounds to mention that?

Personally, I know I "preached" to my sons way more than I ever did my daughter. Their childhood and college years were filled with "please don't eat the daisies" moments where my imagination failed to keep up with the things they could think up that could put their lives in danger.
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  #198  
Old 12-04-2014, 09:52 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
Who doesn't think that?
Millions of people around the world. The average man college student doesn't get a lecture about safe behaviors to reduce the likelihood of violent victimization. The average woman college student gets tons of lectures.

All discussions of sexual assault and rape are gender based. That is highlighted in many posts in this thread.

Last edited by DrPhil; 12-04-2014 at 09:58 PM.
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  #199  
Old 12-04-2014, 09:52 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
I didn't mean you, I meant if the mother thinks her daughter is covered solely by having a police whistle and pepper spray, she's deluding herself. All women need to know how to combat the physical, mental and emotional forms of assault.
Not at all. Both parents are recently retired US Diplomats and as such have been in many very different (and often dangerous) parts of the world and in many different circumstances. Mother went over with daughter her normal routine and identified with her vulnerabilities. One glaring one was walking home to her apartment by herself in the dark after a late class. She got herself a bike to be able to travel at a greater speed then added pepper spray and a police whistle on a cord. No guarantees of complete safety, but she does have some defenses in place. Predators of all kinds prey on the vulnerable, as we know.
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  #200  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:07 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
I didn't mean you, I meant if the mother thinks her daughter is covered solely by having a police whistle and pepper spray, she's deluding herself. All women need to know how to combat the physical, mental and emotional forms of assault.
Yes, this.

But it's also necessary to be able to assess risk with some semblance of accuracy. With our 24/7 news cycle that loves to sensationalize, people have a hard time with this. Remember the recent Ebola frenzy? And a few years ago it was the shark frenzy. In the 80's it was the daycare child molester frenzy. And we've had the rape crisis frenzy for a while. Rape is a problem, and not just on college campuses. But hysteria doesn't lead to effective policy decisions to combat it.
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  #201  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:12 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
Millions of people around the world. The average man college student doesn't get a lecture about safe behaviors to reduce the likelihood of violent victimization. The average woman college student gets tons of lectures.

All discussions of sexual assault and rape are gender based. That is highlighted in many posts in this thread.
Well, duh. You've jumpd the shark if you think any of what's being discussed here is applicable to an Afghanistan or a Rwanda.

When you say men don't get lectures about violent victimization risk reduction, can you be specific on what you mean by violent victimization?
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  #202  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:16 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
Well, duh. You've jumpd the shark if you think any of what's being discussed here is applicable to an Afghanistan or a Rwanda.
Are you dumb enough to think that "millions of people around the world" does not include millions of people in the USA?

Get your head out of your ass.

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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
When you say men don't get lectures about violent victimization risk reduction, can you be specific on what you mean by violent victimization?
No, but I can go back to typing about a general topic rather than responding to honorgal.
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  #203  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:23 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
Are you dumb enough to think that "millions of people around the world" does not include millions of people in the USA?

Get your head out of your ass.



No, but I can go back to typing about a general topic rather than responding to honorgal.
Good grief.
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  #204  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:28 PM
Low D Flat Low D Flat is offline
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The vast majority of men and women would look at the Swarthmore fact set and think "if that's rape, then geez, I'm guilty"
I can't speak to the vast majority, but that's true of me, anyway. I've both raped and been raped if that's rape. You tell your partner you aren't in the mood, the partner gets undressed and tries to be seductive, it works, and consensual sex happens without the verbal "no" ever being withdrawn. If the seduction doesn't work to change your mood, you say, "Nice try, honey, maybe tomorrow."

As far as my boyfriend is concerned, if we're in bed together and he pulls my panties down, and I just watch silently, that means "yes, keep going."
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  #205  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:44 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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And there are women and men who are silent because being vocal or making gestures of disapproval could result in a much more painful experience.

This is a flashback to rape accusations being dismissed if the woman (or man) alleged victim orgasms.

****
I don't know if this article has been posted:

Rape culture on campus: The silence of men

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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
Good grief.
Don't pretend you didn't precipitate that.

Last edited by DrPhil; 12-04-2014 at 10:54 PM.
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  #206  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:04 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by Low D Flat View Post
I can't speak to the vast majority, but that's true of me, anyway. I've both raped and been raped if that's rape. You tell your partner you aren't in the mood, the partner gets undressed and tries to be seductive, it works, and consensual sex happens without the verbal "no" ever being withdrawn. If the seduction doesn't work to change your mood, you say, "Nice try, honey, maybe tomorrow."

As far as my boyfriend is concerned, if we're in bed together and he pulls my panties down, and I just watch silently, that means "yes, keep going."
What really gets me is the message to young women. It's overwhelmingly that they have no agency, no ability to say no, no ability to take care of themselves, to prevent becoming a victim. What in the world has happened to feminism? Depressing.
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  #207  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:09 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post



Don't pretend you didn't precipitate that.
I'm not pretending. I didn't.
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  #208  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:32 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
And there are women and men who are silent because being vocal or making gestures of disapproval could result in a much more painful experience.
. Undoubtably, there are. But you are not going to be able to change that by redefining and branding the vast majority of sexual encounters in healthy relationships as rape.
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  #209  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:42 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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I wonder what came of this "movement" since 2011?

http://www.calcasa.org/wp-content/up...e-of-Rape1.pdf
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  #210  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:55 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
...by redefining and branding the vast majority of sexual encounters in healthy relationships as rape.
That is not what is happening. Don't worry. People whose consensual sexual encounters involve silent consent will not be prevented from getting their rocks off.
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