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  #181  
Old 12-04-2014, 01:36 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robinseggblue View Post
I can't say, I wasn't there. I was just presenting a possibility for those who expressed they didn't "understand" how a victim could not fight back in the case that she didn't want to have sex.

I don't understand how you're expecting anyone to judge a case from a couple of sentences printed in a newspaper article and I find that lacking in good sense. Who is anyone on here to judge what a proper punishment should be in a situation we are neither part of nor know the full facts of?
What an interesting response.

This is what we are all being asked to do with the Rolling Stone article. And the hundreds (thousands?) of other articles that insist our universities are failing their students with their responses.

Quote:
Your line of thinking seems to be: "she had slept with him before and she got into bed with him (how could she expect him not to want sex?), she said no but then didn't resist when he tried again...therefore not deserving of the classification of rape?" Ok. Cool story bro.
No, my line of thinking is this: It's an article that is clearly sympathetic to the alarm some are raising about rape culture at Swarthmore. Journalists doing this style of story usually lead with their most persuasive allegation, and it's clearly her story, we don't ever hear his side. So this is the view of the facts that best supports her rape claim. And that's all there is? Personally, I'd have a very difficult time expelling him from college and calling him a rapist, based on that evidence. Your mileage may vary, which is why I asked.

We can easily stipulate that these are the only facts an administrator has to base a decision on and that both students sound credible and believable at in-person interviews. its a thought experiment, remember?

Edited to add: just so I'm clear...My opinion does not then automatically mean I think this woman is lying. She may sincerely believe she was raped. But if this is rape, it happens in millions upon millions of bedrooms all across the country every night. (yes, Dr.Phil, I know, I know...its the patriarchy.)

Last edited by honorgal; 12-04-2014 at 01:54 PM.
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  #182  
Old 12-04-2014, 01:39 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

I don't believe anyone should be branded a "rapist" and punished without organizational investigations and, if it is a legal situation, the proper legal procedures.
At the end of the day, these are actual people, these young men and women, with a specific, individual set of facts to each allegation. And somebody(s) is having to decide. Can the discussion go beyond the sweeping generalities?
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  #183  
Old 12-04-2014, 01:41 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
At the end of the day, these are actual people, these young men and women, with a specific, individual set of facts to each allegation. And somebody(s) is having to decide. Can the discussion go beyond the sweeping generalities?
What are you typing about?
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  #184  
Old 12-04-2014, 03:06 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

I don't believe anyone should be branded a "rapist" and punished without organizational investigations and, if it is a legal situation, the proper legal procedures.
At the end of the day, some allegations will, in fact, have to be dismissed. Won't they? Otherwise, what's the point of an investigation or legal procedures?
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  #185  
Old 12-04-2014, 03:15 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by 1964Alum View Post
They insisted that she attend one of the safety on campus workshops and buy a can of pepper spray to carry with her wherever she goes. They were also planning on buying a police whistle to carry on a cord around her neck.
SMH. This is the definition of not getting it. That is, still thinking of "rapist" solely as "stranger who lurks in the bushes and jumps out and attacks you."
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  #186  
Old 12-04-2014, 03:36 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
SMH. This is the definition of not getting it. That is, still thinking of "rapist" solely as "stranger who lurks in the bushes and jumps out and attacks you."
While I understand the point you are making and agree that this rape fact pattern is much more rare these days, I think Charlottesville would not be exactly comforted by that fact right now, due to the Hannah Graham abduction and murder. It's too fresh in people's minds.
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  #187  
Old 12-04-2014, 03:44 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
At the end of the day, some allegations will, in fact, have to be dismissed. Won't they? Otherwise, what's the point of an investigation or legal procedures?
What are you typing about?

Dismissing allegations after a thorough investigation does not have to mean dismissing allegations solely because of narrow views regarding "rape".

Last edited by DrPhil; 12-04-2014 at 03:51 PM.
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  #188  
Old 12-04-2014, 03:49 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
What are you typing about?
Your words.

Quote:
Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".
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  #189  
Old 12-04-2014, 03:52 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
Your words.
I know my words. What are you typing about?
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  #190  
Old 12-04-2014, 04:02 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
I know my words. What are you typing about?
Your words. Are you saying you don't understand what I wrote in response to your words?
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  #191  
Old 12-04-2014, 04:13 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
What are you typing about?

Dismissing allegations after a thorough investigation does not have to mean dismissing allegations solely because of narrow views regarding "rape".
Ah, you edited. No of course it doesn't HAVE to mean that. But we do have to have some general consensus as a society as to what constitutes rape. The vast majority of men and women would look at the Swarthmore fact set and think "if that's rape, then geez, I'm guilty". Are you advocating that we narrow it and call it rape, and expel the student as a rapist? If you are, why don't you just say so?
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  #192  
Old 12-04-2014, 05:28 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
No of course it doesn't HAVE to mean that.

Good.
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  #193  
Old 12-04-2014, 07:08 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
SMH. This is the definition of not getting it. That is, still thinking of "rapist" solely as "stranger who lurks in the bushes and jumps out and attacks you."
This DOES happen! There was an incident on the news just the other day about a woman who was attacked just this way. Of course I "get it". Rape can and does take place in many, many different situations. But I also "get" having some common sense about what kinds of situations you expose yourself to as a woman. And what the attendant risks are. Also what self-protective measures we as women can take. IMO to think otherwise is very naive and unrealistic.
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  #194  
Old 12-04-2014, 07:31 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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This is an unfortunate discussion.

I hope people realize that men also precipitate (which isn't victim blaming) their own victimization as well as precipitating many circumstances in which they are accused of crimes. Yet and still, people tend not to preach to men about the behaviors that increase the likelihood of such incidents.

But people love to preach to women. It is absolutely sickening.

Last edited by DrPhil; 12-04-2014 at 07:36 PM.
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  #195  
Old 12-04-2014, 08:38 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Men absolutely precipitate their own victimization. There is plenty of need for serious examination all the way around. And it won't come overnight.
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