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  #166  
Old 12-03-2014, 05:49 PM
Low D Flat Low D Flat is offline
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I went to lots of Greek parties as an undergrad (and as a high school girl, I'm sorry to say). But I'm not trying to generalize from my experience.

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To say that there's a higher risk in one place than another creates a false sense of security when you are NOT in that place, and that's when bad things happen.
Yes and no. This CAN create a false sense of security, but it doesn't have to. People need to keep their wits about them everywhere, but there's more risk dancing at a college kegger than volunteering at an elementary school. It's riskier to be around men than around women; it's riskier to walk down my street at 3 AM than at noon. Understanding that some places (like college parties) are particularly dangerous for women doesn't preclude 24/7 awareness.
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  #167  
Old 12-03-2014, 05:56 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by sugar and spice View Post
References to this study have been making the rounds in the news in the wake of the UVA article. It studied only one campus, so it's impossible to extrapolate those results to the Greek population at large, but its results are worrisome regardless. According to the author of that study, other studies have found similar results. (Another previous study found less of a link, but that study is almost 20 years old at this point, and things may have changed.)

The plus side of that first study is that it suggests that when fraternities are exposed to proper rape intervention programming, the rates of sexual assault decrease to be comparable with the rates of non-Greek students--so it seems fairly obvious that rape intervention/bystander intervention should be included in fraternities' new member ed programs as soon as possible (and it probably wouldn't hurt to add them to sororities', either). That's an easy, not-incredibly-expensive way to be proactive about the problem.



Colorado has NPC sororities, but the only school-sanctioned fraternities there are cultural, right? They banned the IFC system around ten years ago (although it still continues to exist off-campus, obviously). If it was a legal problem, I imagine it would have come up at some point in the last ten years. Maybe the existence of cultural fraternities is enough to cover their asses legally? Don't know. Anybody who does, please weigh in.



The UVA article included references to a study that suggested that the vast majority of those "murky" date-rape situations don't actually exist as such; in reality, they involve serial predators who prey on incapacitated women and then, if caught, paint the situation as a he said/she said misunderstanding in order to escape prosecution.
Thanks for the links. I've read quite a bit of Lisak's research. (Last link). He's considered the gold standard. As you say, Lisak's conclusion is that a large majority of rapes are committed by serial rapists who use predatory behavior (vulnerability and/or alcohol) to facilitate their rapes. He also concludes that these predators are not amenable to education or "teaching them not to rape" and that there needs to be criminal prosecution and incarceration. He advocates that we teach the police and prosecutors how to do this effectively, by focusing not just on the small window of time during which the rape occurred, but by a thorough investigation of the accused.

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So what specifically should authorities do differently in these cases?

Itís challenging. But if you just take the data we have on serial offending, one of the clearest implications of this is that whenever you receive a report of a nonstranger sexual assault, that is a window of opportunity. When a case initially comes to your attention, there may be complications or difficulties, maybe no good leads. But one of the investigative avenues needs to be a comprehensive investigation of the alleged offender, and not just putting blinders on looking solely on the alleged 45-minute interaction between these two people.

If someone comes to law enforcement and alleges someone is pushing drugs, you do not just walk up to the drug dealer and ask him, Are you selling drugs? And if he says no, then just throw up your arms. What we do is investigate that guy, to find out if heís dealing drugs, find out where he hangs out, where he lives, who knows him, who he talks to, who doesnít like him, all of those things. This is what detectives do every day. We donít expect to solve a drug case like that by doing a couple of interviews and walking out with a slam dunk. But we donít apply that sort of basic investigative procedure to these sexual assault cases.

The starkest data from my study and the Navy study is that in both, over 90 percent of all sex assaults are perpetrated by serial offenders. Every report should trigger an investigation of that alleged offender. Who is this guy? What is his background? Talk to people who know him. Find out where he hangs out. When investigators do that, youíd be amazed by how many leads emerge. Very often, what starts out as an investigation of a single incident turns into an investigation of multiple victims and multiple incidents.
There are also other cases that involve intoxicated (not incapacitated) consensual sex or hookup sex where the accused obviously feels victimized after the fact. I don't know what percentage they are, but they certainly do exist and I would be interested in opinions on how they should be dealt with by colleges and/or law enforcement. Interesting that no one has commented on the example I gave from Swarthmore.
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  #168  
Old 12-03-2014, 06:34 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Well, I will comment on the lead-in example in the Swarthmore article. What I am seeing there is a remarkable lack of judgment. I can't even imagine getting into bed with a man -especially one with whom I have had sexual relations in the past- and being surprised that he would make moves on me. Or on the part of the young man for that matter. But then this "hook up" culture is completely foreign to me as well! Has campus sex become a physical activity like playing tennis or any other physical activity to get your rocks off? Purely recreational sex? Is there no relationship component to it? If sex has become so depersonalized as to be able to make objects of ones partners, is that a more fundamental problem? Add alcohol and drugs to the mix and you have potentially very volatile situations.

I don't understand, either, the goal of drinking/drugging to the point of blacking out. And yet that seems to be the goal of at least some binge drinking. Is this intentional lack of awareness so as to be able to avoid taking responsibility for ones actions?
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  #169  
Old 12-03-2014, 07:00 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by 1964Alum View Post
Well, I will comment on the lead-in example in the Swarthmore article. What I am seeing there is a remarkable lack of judgment. I can't even imagine getting into bed with a man -especially one with whom I have had sexual relations in the past- and being surprised that he would make moves on me. Or on the part of the young man for that matter. But then this "hook up" culture is completely foreign to me as well! Has campus sex become a physical activity like playing tennis or any other physical activity to get your rocks off? Purely recreational sex? Is there no relationship component to it? If sex has become so depersonalized as to be able to make objects of ones partners, is that a more fundamental problem? Add alcohol and drugs to the mix and you have potentially very volatile situations.

I don't understand, either, the goal of drinking/drugging to the point of blacking out. And yet that seems to be the goal of at least some binge drinking. Is this intentional lack of awareness so as to be able to avoid taking responsibility for ones actions?
I appreciate your comments. What astounds me is the overwhelming passiveness of this girl. Even more astounding, that feminists are encouraging this kind of passive victim mentality in our next generation of women. It looks like a giant leap backwards.
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  #170  
Old 12-03-2014, 07:54 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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It would seem that we were definitely more street-wise back in the day. We also had all those hormones making powerful calls on us, but we seemed to have handled them with more maturity and discretion. Even when we were first coming of age well before we entered college. This was one of the goals of sex ed in school when our youngest son was in high school. It went well beyond the mechanics of sex and consequences of same into setting parameters and boundaries for relationships. The boys as well as the girls were schooled in how to decline a sexual overture that were not ready for/didn't want. And this was to the relief of MANY of the males, many of whom were under pressure themselves. They also had an excellent education in drug and alcohol use, starting in the case of our youngest in about the third grade in the Episcopal Day School he attended. This continued into his public middle and high schools. Our four -now all adults with families of their own- pretty much confined themselves to serial monogamy once they entered into sexual relationships, both our three sons and one daughter. I can't imagine our daughter ever putting up with what young women are experiencing today!
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Last edited by 1964Alum; 12-03-2014 at 07:57 PM.
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  #171  
Old 12-03-2014, 08:38 PM
OPhiAGinger OPhiAGinger is offline
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This story popped up on NPR today. Apparently the RS author is being criticized because she deliberately did not seek comment from the alleged coordinator ("Drew") of the date rape. The author explained that "Jackie" begged the author not to contact "Drew". Realizing how emotionally fragile "Jackie" still was even two years after the incident, the author and her editor decided to abide by Jackie's request. The criticism focuses on the fact that she did not disclose that decision in the RS article.

Thoughts?
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  #172  
Old 12-03-2014, 09:47 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by OPhiAGinger View Post
This story popped up on NPR today. Apparently the RS author is being criticized because she deliberately did not seek comment from the alleged coordinator ("Drew") of the date rape. The author explained that "Jackie" begged the author not to contact "Drew". Realizing how emotionally fragile "Jackie" still was even two years after the incident, the author and her editor decided to abide by Jackie's request. The criticism focuses on the fact that she did not disclose that decision in the RS article.

Thoughts?
Richard Bradley has had the most extensive and in-depth coverage of the journalistic sub-story to the Rolling Stone story. His latest is quite interesting.

http://www.richardbradley.net/shotsinthedark/

The Washington Post, Hanna Rosin at Slate, Reason, and the New Republic are also covering. Hanna Rosin also has a podcast interview with the RS author.

When I first read the story, it struck me as improbable as it was presented. Not impossible, but improbable. The journalistic shortcuts and ensuing reaction of RS to criticism only add to that improbability. I would like to think that there are some missing facts that make the situation much more complicated/ambiguous, rather than an outright fabrication (ala Duke). IF it's been factually presented, it's not only a horrific gang rape, it's an almost unthinkable dereliction on the part of the grown ups in the room (the UVA administration) not to move heaven and earth to get the perps locked up where they belong. IF the allegations are true and I had a kid at UVA, I'd do everything I could to make sure all administrators with knowledge of the allegation lose their jobs.

That said, I'm very much aware of the FACT that the University is absolutely constrained by what they can and can't say to defend how they handled the situation. So, we've only heard one completely un-corroborated side of the story.
I'd like to wait until the facts come out fully before I pass final judgement.

Last edited by honorgal; 12-03-2014 at 09:50 PM.
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  #173  
Old 12-03-2014, 10:40 PM
Low D Flat Low D Flat is offline
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What astounds me is the overwhelming passiveness of this girl.
Same here. I don't get it. I have never in my life been too tired to push back if I didn't want to have sex with my boyfriend and he thought I had changed my mind. I can't even imagine being that tired.
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  #174  
Old 12-04-2014, 01:11 AM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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In a story and filmed interview with one of the "friends" on a local TV station, the friend who was among those counseling Jackie not to report the incident or even go to the hospital for her injuries acknowledged that the story was true. Also that "Jackie" was still very fragile. She commended the support "Jackie" received from UVA in her healing, a departure from the stance of many there.

I was also hearing of these very shocking kinds of date rapes taking place at UVA as reported by the daughters of friends to their parents well before the RS article.

The President of the IFC there also painfully acknowledged that date rape within the fraternities there was a serious problem. I believe him and others.
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  #175  
Old 12-04-2014, 01:58 AM
robinseggblue robinseggblue is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
I appreciate your comments. What astounds me is the overwhelming passiveness of this girl. Even more astounding, that feminists are encouraging this kind of passive victim mentality in our next generation of women. It looks like a giant leap backwards.
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Originally Posted by Low D Flat View Post
Same here. I don't get it. I have never in my life been too tired to push back if I didn't want to have sex with my boyfriend and he thought I had changed my mind. I can't even imagine being that tired.
You may not understand it, but there is a freeze response, in addition to fight or flight. It is a biological response to a stressful/traumatic situation that is also seen in other animals.

http://www.lifecentre.uk.com/dealing..._response.html

http://www.joyfulheartfoundation.org...y-tonights-svu

Saying she was too "tired" makes me think she could have experienced tonic immobility (the freeze response) but is not able to articulate that more precisely.
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  #176  
Old 12-04-2014, 02:00 AM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by 1964Alum View Post
In a story and filmed interview with one of the "friends" on a local TV station, the friend who was among those counseling Jackie not to report the incident or even go to the hospital for her injuries acknowledged that the story was true. Also that "Jackie" was still very fragile. She commended the support "Jackie" received from UVA in her healing, a departure from the stance of many there.

I was also hearing of these very shocking kinds of date rapes taking place at UVA as reported by the daughters of friends to their parents well before the RS article.

The President of the IFC there also painfully acknowledged that date rape within the fraternities there was a serious problem. I believe him and others.
Are you sure that the student interviewed on local TV was one of the 3 friends from the RS article? I have not seen any journalists mention that and many are trying to track down the specific people involved in the story. Was there any attempt in the interview to question the friend about why she didn't urge That Jackie needed to go the ER immediately? I have to say, that part of the story certainly caused my antenna to go up. It's just hard to fathom that a friend would respond so utterly callously to someone who has just been gang raped and beaten by seven men. And then I thought maybe I just don't realize how morally bankrupt the average college student has become. I asked my daughter and some of her friends about it when they were home for Thanksgiving. They were all adamant that it's the craziest thing they've ever heard of, and can't imagine it happened remotely the way it was reported. Again, it doesn't mean it's impossible that it happened exactly as described in the article. But what parent would pay to have their daughter in that environment?
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  #177  
Old 12-04-2014, 02:35 AM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by robinseggblue View Post
You may not understand it, but there is a freeze response, in addition to fight or flight. It is a biological response to a stressful/traumatic situation that is also seen in other animals.

http://www.lifecentre.uk.com/dealing..._response.html

http://www.joyfulheartfoundation.org...y-tonights-svu

Saying she was too "tired" makes me think she could have experienced tonic immobility (the freeze response) but is not able to articulate that more precisely.
She then says she pulled up her panties and went to sleep. Maybe she was tired. But we can hypothesize just about anything, I suppose.

As a thought experiment, what would you do if you were the college administrator assigned to adjudicate her claim that she was raped? Would you expel the student and declare him a rapist based on the set of facts this girl presented. Some lesser punishment?
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  #178  
Old 12-04-2014, 02:45 AM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
Are you sure that the student interviewed on local TV was one of the 3 friends from the RS article? I have not seen any journalists mention that and many are trying to track down the specific people involved in the story. Was there any attempt in the interview to question the friend about why she didn't urge That Jackie needed to go the ER immediately? I have to say, that part of the story certainly caused my antenna to go up. It's just hard to fathom that a friend would respond so utterly callously to someone who has just been gang raped and beaten by seven men. And then I thought maybe I just don't realize how morally bankrupt the average college student has become. I asked my daughter and some of her friends about it when they were home for Thanksgiving. They were all adamant that it's the craziest thing they've ever heard of, and can't imagine it happened remotely the way it was reported. Again, it doesn't mean it's impossible that it happened exactly as described in the article. But what parent would pay to have their daughter in that environment?
Yes. This was a very short film clip on a local station. Not yellow journalism in the least. People here were aghast as well and wanted to know if it was true. The young lady was shown but her name not given. She did say that she had joined an unspecified sorority. The interviewer did not press her on why she had responded to her friend the way she had. There was another short clip of an unnamed sorority member at UVA where she was asked why a young woman wouldn't report such a horror. She replied that the Freshmen (or First
Years as they are called there) wouldn't report it as they were afraid it would hurt their chances of getting into a sorority. The Inter Sorority Council there posted pretty quickly that reporting a rape wouldn't adversely affect the chances of receiving a bid in the least. If the film clip is still available from the local station and I can find it I will post it.
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  #179  
Old 12-04-2014, 02:58 AM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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I did ask one mother and father with a daughter there why their daughter continued to go to UVA. They said that their daughter didn't want to leave because the specialized program of what she was studying wasn't available elsewhere. She is an upperclassman but I don't remember which year. They have been sick with anxiety, of course, even before the RS story. They insisted that she attend one of the safety on campus workshops and buy a can of pepper spray to carry with her wherever she goes. They were also planning on buying a police whistle to carry on a cord around her neck.

Our daughter, our oldest, got her Masters at UVA and is on the adjunct faculty teaching grad students. She hadn't personally heard of anything that has been going on there so asked some colleagues who teach undergrads. They confirmed for her that the severity of the problem there was true. And then got involved in the alumni response. Both as an alum and faculty member but also as a certified mediator. She has very grave concerns about the way these matters have been handled there.
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  #180  
Old 12-04-2014, 01:34 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

I don't believe anyone should be branded a "rapist" and punished without organizational investigations and, if it is a legal situation, the proper legal procedures.
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