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  #61  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:01 PM
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AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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Originally Posted by DTD Alum View Post
OK, I admit I am lane swerving, but I am sort of with Sen in that I am more than ready for some transparency here. As a relatively recent alumnus, I have to say that sorority members, particularly right after they graduate, are far more open to talking about membership selection, operations, even rituals than GC'ers are. And most of the stuff is petty, but sometimes where there is smoke, there is fire, so I'll go ahead and say it.

I agree with your statement, but isn't this exactly where the problem is coming from?

I have been told by members of two different sororities (one who was rush chair and saw it happen, and one who actually used this following tactic) that for their orgs, all it took to get a girl automatically cut was for the chapter to receive a "no rec/do not pledge rec" from ANY alumna. And that the delivery of such a rec, which seemed to be worse than a "I do not recommend", was enough to get the PNM cut after Day 1 with absolutely no discussion allowed.

Neither GLO was mentioned in the Crimson White article, but both are present at Bama. Maybe these are the only two GLOs that do it, and maybe both collegians were confused when they told me and understood the procedure wrong (although I don't think a rush chair and somebody who used this tactic would get it wrong, but who knows). But given the statements Melanie Gotz and others made in the piece, this seems like a very likely avenue for an alumna who is concerned with keeping the chapter white, or rich, or whatever to efficiently blackball a rushee.

I know we don't talk about membership selection or whatever, and I can see many good uses for this tactic (in fact, the girl I know who did it had very specific information that was verified that the chapter didn't know of), but can we maybe just admit that whether the above example is true or not, that loopholes may just exist that alumnae are exploiting for their own discriminatory interests?

ETA: The discussion of this procedure happened at a brunch where a friend of mine mentioned she had done it for a girl we all knew who had done discriminatory things in the past that her collegiate chapter was unaware of, and another friend who had led her house in rush verified she saw the same thing happened in her own sorority. Just for clarity. One was at my school, the other was not. Friends were from high school.

Second ETA: This honestly also lines up very closely with what the collegians had to say in the piece, and even makes sense if the advisers were "sticking to procedure regarding recommendations" in terms of some of the adviser quotes.
Remember that some groups REQUIRE an alum rec for membership. I'd assume a no rec would be a party killer for a PNM in that case. AOII doesn't require a rec for a bid, but if I sent in a no rec (which would honestly be a really serious issue) the situation would be spelled out. When a chapter is discussing invitations for the next party and needs to cut someone, it's a no brainer to release the standards risk. I don't plan on no rec'ing anyone for being black.
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  #62  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:03 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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I may have missed something in the article. But is there clear evidence of unfair exclusion beyond hearsay? Beyond the hearsay, are they just looking at the lack thereof and positing discrimination based on outcome even if it was not intended? I would be more interested in this story if there were 5-10+ Black women going through each recruitment and none of them made it despite being stellar PNMs.

I can't force myself to care beyond that. Therefore....

Accepting someone just for minority quota = tokenism

Accepting someone and saying "we are all the same people...being conscious, proud, and talking about your racial identity is like wars" = cluelessness and tokenism

That is all.

Last edited by DrPhil; 09-11-2013 at 05:30 PM. Reason: YIKES!!!!!!!
  #63  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:03 PM
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I am sure that each sorority has some membership selection policies that are alike and some that differ. They couldn't differ too much. Obviously, the way to keep someone out of any group would be to get a majority to vote against him or her and if there's more than that, I wouldn't know.

However--other groups' policies are none of my business!
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  #64  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:06 PM
DTD Alum DTD Alum is offline
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Originally Posted by AOII Angel View Post
Remember that some groups REQUIRE an alum rec for membership. I'd assume a no rec would be a party killer for a PNM in that case. AOII doesn't require a rec for a bid, but if I sent in a no rec (which would honestly be a really serious issue) the situation would be spelled out. When a chapter is discussing invitations for the next party and needs to cut someone, it's a no brainer to release the standards risk. I don't plan on no rec'ing anyone for being black.
Thank you for shining some light onto it. I don't even disagree with the principle that alumnae "No recs" would be taken seriously. I know in the instance of where one was used (not your GLO, by the way) the woman had specific information about rampant homophobia that led to a woman dropping out of high school...if I was in any chapter, I'd love to hear about that. So if this avenue exists, in any form, I get why it does.

I am sure that the overwhelming majority of women would not "No Rec" somebody for being black, and that even if that there was an option to "No Rec" somebody, you would have to be fairly concrete with your reasons why. I was merely questioning if this might have been an avenue for alumnae at this particular school to, say, make up something and send a "no rec" if they were strongly opposed to a black woman pledging. It seems that a "no rec", once in, would significantly affect the way MS was conducted, whether an automatic cut, or just a wary warning to collegians, or something else (points knocked off a score, like one woman posited).
  #65  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:07 PM
LaneSig LaneSig is offline
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The way my fraternity chapter did it...put a slideshow of rushees pictures and talked about them. Our vote to get a bid was I believe 85%. The percentage to get invited back every subsequent night was higher than the previous, maybe started at 50% for the open house night or something, and increased. Often there would be heated debates and some members would be drinking. We did not have a blackball system but I know of at least one other chapter at my school that did. To my knowledge, we had absolutely no nationally mandated way to vote, it was all from chapter bylaws. I know one fraternity just elected a rush chair and committee and let them do all the deciding. And I have never heard of an IFC fraternity who had a rubric like the NPC sororities, usually it was up to the chapter to figure out how to cut/bid.

The point is that fraternities don't claim secrecy about the way we let guys in. Sororities do. And when an article comes out that multiple women who are currently active seem to indicate there were avenues for alumnae to cut a girl they wanted for reprehensibly discriminatory reasons, and yet sororities will not disclose if those avenues (even if they are well intentioned and just being taken advantage of by racist alumnae) even exist, then how on earth can there be a discussion about how they can be fixed?

Nobody is asking what Pi Phi stands for or the significance of AGD's colors. People are just wondering what these women might be referring to when the article quotes procedures that were used by alumnae to keep women out. It is a fair question, IMO.

And I stand by that many collegians and younger alumnae have no problem telling you all you want to know about membership selection. Frankly most of what I have been told is fairly boring and expected.
Fixed your post. Not every fraternity does it this way. Beyond the guideline of the Jordan Standard, Sigma Chi does not tell its undergrads how the voting process should be. Delta Tau Delta has a voting plan that says every chapter has to agree 85%? Every chapter has to have a slide show.

While my chapter did not have the process that the NPC groups have, I can assure it that it was a secret vote. And even if I disagreed with a member's vote for or against a rushee, I would no more tell an outsider how EricBob voted than tell an outsider our ritual.
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  #66  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:11 PM
DTD Alum DTD Alum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaneSig View Post
Fixed your post. Not every fraternity does it this way. Beyond the guideline of the Jordan Standard, Sigma Chi does not tell its undergrads how the voting process should be. Delta Tau Delta has a voting plan that says every chapter has to agree 85%? Every chapter has to have a slide show.

While my chapter did not have the process that the NPC groups have, I can assure it that it was a secret vote. And even if I disagreed with a member's vote for or against a rushee, I would no more tell an outsider how EricBob voted than tell an outsider our ritual.
I worded that colloquially. Obviously not every fraternity uses a slideshow, but I meant it to display that fraternity voting is significantly less regulated than it appears sorority voting is. If you read my post, I said that all of that came from our chapter bylaws. I have no idea what other DTD chapters do. While discussions may be private, I have no problems giving a basic idea of how it all goes down. I know NPC sororities do.
  #67  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:18 PM
Titchou Titchou is offline
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Dr. Phil: I hope you meant "hearsay" not "hearse."
  #68  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:18 PM
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AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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Originally Posted by DTD Alum View Post
Thank you for shining some light onto it. I don't even disagree with the principle that alumnae "No recs" would be taken seriously. I know in the instance of where one was used (not your GLO, by the way) the woman had specific information about rampant homophobia that led to a woman dropping out of high school...if I was in any chapter, I'd love to hear about that. So if this avenue exists, in any form, I get why it does.

I am sure that the overwhelming majority of women would not "No Rec" somebody for being black, and that even if that there was an option to "No Rec" somebody, you would have to be fairly concrete with your reasons why. I was merely questioning if this might have been an avenue for alumnae at this particular school to, say, make up something and send a "no rec" if they were strongly opposed to a black woman pledging. It seems that a "no rec", once in, would significantly affect the way MS was conducted, whether an automatic cut, or just a wary warning to collegians, or something else (points knocked off a score, like one woman posited).
More likely no one would give her a rec at all. Who knows? As organizations, we can have all the nondiscriminatory policies we want, but we can't police all the discriminators acting in secret. Bama is the worst at the moment, but it wasn't that long ago that this issue was much more pervasive. Alumnae have traditionally had a lot of power at older chapters. My chapter had a similar event (not regarding race) which is not allowed under AOII rules. Collegiate members frequently don't know the rules well enough to counter the alums who have been around the block a few times and are pushing something unpalatable down their throats. Airing the dirty laundry makes me think that there is a tipping point coming up. The alums can only hold on so long.
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  #69  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Titchou View Post
Dr. Phil: I hope you meant "hearsay" not "hearse."
I hope she meant "hearse."
  #70  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:27 PM
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SWTXBelle SWTXBelle is offline
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It ain't (sic) necessarily so . . .

MANY alumnae and collegians THINK the way their chapter does membership selection is the official, HQ-sanctioned way.

MANY are wrong.

Working as an alumnae advisor, I've been very surprised at how many of my own sisters just assumed that chapter traditions, or something an alumna told them was "the way it was done", was the official line - and how often they were in fact wrong. That is the kind of ignorance that can lead to wild discrepancies from the GLO's official way of doing membership selection.
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  #71  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:29 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Yikes. Why is "hearse" on my mind? Scary. Making edit.
  #72  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:34 PM
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Yikes. Why is "hearse" on my mind? Scary. Making edit.
I am very disappointed. I was really hoping we'd get a macabre vibe going in one of these GC race threads.
  #73  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:35 PM
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AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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Yikes. Why is "hearse" on my mind? Scary. Making edit.
Cuz you've been killing people with bees in the other thread!
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  #74  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:36 PM
PersistentDST PersistentDST is offline
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So...being I'm a results type of person...

What are possible solutions to this problem? Are there any? I'm interested in responses since my org runs things differently. I'm just curious.
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  #75  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:40 PM
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Rec is short for "recommendation." If it was an order, we'd be telling girls to get their "ors" together in June. Maybe some groups allow alumnae or advisors to go above and beyond that and put the kibosh on a rushee with zero input from the collegians. If that's your group, I'm sorry, but I find that wrong and in complete conflict with the NPC philosophy of developing strong women.

If it's true that this isn't "official" but that alumnae hold the threat of denying donations over collegians' heads, talk about a case of live by the sword, die by the sword. You can have the prettiest house and best sous chef on earth, as long as you surrender your power to choose who you'll be living with for your college career. I just don't get it. I just don't get being that complacent.

The problem is that as far as numbers...it probably works, and keeps the $$$ coming in to HQ...so they're very reluctant to rock the boat as far as pulling people out of advisory positions, etc. I would bet that the women doing what I mentioned above aren't official volunteers, anyway.
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