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  #46  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:13 AM
PiKA2001 PiKA2001 is offline
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Originally Posted by DubaiSis View Post
I wouldn't say that. If you are a non-believer, whether Atheist or Agnostic, you (I) begin to really feel like religion is constantly being crammed down your throat. I do notice all the God comments on everything, and Christian statements of faith in particular. Some of it I just have to tolerate (and this is how I feel about the religion'y parts of sorority life I've experienced) and some (under God in the PoA) are personally offensive. When I was going through rush I hadn't fully developed my belief system so it didn't bother me, but I can tell you if one of the nonsectarian sororities were available to me back then, it probably would have been quite appealing. I choose to consider the religious aspects more a testament to the times and not as much about what the founders would expect of their members 100+ years later. And I don't think that's hair-splitting, since sororities that actively wouldn't accept Catholics or Jews back then think nothing of it now.
I don't see it like that at all. Does seeing a pride flag on a car or street corner make you feel like homosexuality is being crammed down your throat? If not, then why do you feel that way about religion, especially if they (the messages) aren't proselytizing. You singled out Christianity but you live in Dubai and IIRC youve posted before that there were times when you weren't allowed to eat in public during the day or do other things because of Islamic laws or traditions. I would think having to live by certain rules established by a religion would be far worse than seeing a religious creed or motto every now or then.
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  #47  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:27 AM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
Jew-Bus are quite common. So much so that we have a slang term for them.
iLaughed.

Here's one thought: Don't look at national websites for non-discrimination policies. I assume everyone has them, and I agree that doesn't really seem to be the issue here. Look online for the pledge manuals of the fraternities on your campus -- quite a few fraternities have them online now. Most manuals, I think, will have a section on ritual, and there may be some clues, or maybe even a direct statement, there.

Also, the pledging ceremonies (though some fraternities may not call them that) of some fraternities are open, and some of them can be found online. They may also give some indication.
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  #48  
Old 04-27-2012, 10:01 AM
Tulip86 Tulip86 is offline
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Originally Posted by PiKA2001 View Post
I don't see it like that at all. Does seeing a pride flag on a car or street corner make you feel like homosexuality is being crammed down your throat? If not, then why do you feel that way about religion, especially if they (the messages) aren't proselytizing. You singled out Christianity but you live in Dubai and IIRC youve posted before that there were times when you weren't allowed to eat in public during the day or do other things because of Islamic laws or traditions. I would think having to live by certain rules established by a religion would be far worse than seeing a religious creed or motto every now or then.
I don't think the problem is seeing a religious creed or motto, a church, a pride flag or anything of that nature, but having to personally repeat it (like in the PoA) or having to state something of religious nature in ritual.
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  #49  
Old 04-27-2012, 11:42 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by PiKA2001 View Post
I don't see it like that at all. Does seeing a pride flag on a car or street corner make you feel like homosexuality is being crammed down your throat? If not, then why do you feel that way about religion, especially if they (the messages) aren't proselytizing. You singled out Christianity but you live in Dubai and IIRC youve posted before that there were times when you weren't allowed to eat in public during the day or do other things because of Islamic laws or traditions. I would think having to live by certain rules established by a religion would be far worse than seeing a religious creed or motto every now or then.
She's talking about fraternity/sorority things and how prevalent the mentions of God are, not her day to day life.

And to go on a tangent, I didn't realize until after my mom died how if you get a gift in late April/May clerks always ask "Is this for your mom?", the constant marketing of the holiday, etc etc etc. You can't escape it for a period of about two months and let me tell you it really effing sucks, especially on the first go-round. I'm not saying get rid of it, just that sometimes people are inconsiderate and have no clue that they are being so. This all to say, I don't think many of our founders were being inconsiderate or discriminatory when they wrote very Christian-centered or God-centered rituals. It simply did not cross their mind that anyone lived life any differently.
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  #50  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:09 PM
naraht naraht is offline
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General Comments...

I"m presuming that you aren't considering any groups with Christian in their full name. Other than that, the only ones that I'm familiar with that require belief are Kappa Sigma (which has already been mentioned in the thread) and Omega Psi Phi (which I'm guessing isn't a group in the Formal Rush, being NPHC).

I'd like to add the suggestion to check with National Fraternity websites. My service fraternity, Alpha Phi Omega, for example includes in the National Pledging Standards "Pledges should be made aware that the Official Fraternity Initiation Ritual contains references to God and a dedication invoking the name of “Our Common God”.", however religious belief is not required...
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  #51  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:36 PM
Psi U MC Vito Psi U MC Vito is offline
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I would like to point out, especially for the ladies that there are a number of Masonically based fraternities, and I would think all of them would require a belief in a Supreme Being.
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  #52  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:37 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
This all to say, I don't think many of our founders were being inconsiderate or discriminatory when they wrote very Christian-centered or God-centered rituals. It simply did not cross their mind that anyone lived life any differently.
This is what I was trying to say upthread. I think it's important to live our VALUES, but I also don't think that means we have to live them in the very literal way in which they were put down on page.

If some groups still actually require statements of belief, that's one thing, but to compare two rituals side-by-side and count the number of times "God" appears in each one would be futile in determining which group is more religious.
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  #53  
Old 04-27-2012, 01:01 PM
naraht naraht is offline
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Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito View Post
I would like to point out, especially for the ladies that there are a number of Masonically based fraternities, and I would think all of them would require a belief in a Supreme Being.
Masonically Based gets tricky to figure out. Alpha Phi Omega's main founder was a Mason and the original titles (in the 1920s) for the President and Vice President for chapters was Grand Master and Deputy Grand Master (with the National Officers being Supreme ...), but in the 1930s, the titles were changed to be less esoteric. I believe there were other parallel changes at the same time, but I won't get into that. Of course for APO, belief in a supreme being was functionally required for brothers as long as prior scouting membership was required (until 1967)
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  #54  
Old 04-27-2012, 01:08 PM
naraht naraht is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
This is what I was trying to say upthread. I think it's important to live our VALUES, but I also don't think that means we have to live them in the very literal way in which they were put down on page.

If some groups still actually require statements of belief, that's one thing, but to compare two rituals side-by-side and count the number of times "God" appears in each one would be futile in determining which group is more religious.
Absolutely. And once you hit phrasing in the ritual like "Our common god", trying to figure out whether that requires theism, theism + agnosticism or nothing at all gets even trickier.

And conversely, for the Masons, Great Architect of the Universe would be used rather than God.
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  #55  
Old 04-27-2012, 02:31 PM
DubaiSis DubaiSis is online now
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Originally Posted by PiKA2001 View Post
I don't see it like that at all. Does seeing a pride flag on a car or street corner make you feel like homosexuality is being crammed down your throat? If not, then why do you feel that way about religion, especially if they (the messages) aren't proselytizing. You singled out Christianity but you live in Dubai and IIRC youve posted before that there were times when you weren't allowed to eat in public during the day or do other things because of Islamic laws or traditions. I would think having to live by certain rules established by a religion would be far worse than seeing a religious creed or motto every now or then.
If I thought homosexuality was an abomination and destroying our country, yes, every time I saw a pride flag I'd probably be annoyed and feel a bit assaulted. Of course, I don't so that's a moot point. The difference in accepting the day to day existence of Islam in the UAE is it IS a Muslim country and there is no separation of church and state. If I choose to live in a country (I'm no longer there, by the way) that lives under a particular religion's mandate, I can suck it up. I actually found the existence of Islam in the UAE less pervasive than the Christianity everywhere now that I'm back in the states. And that's in the heathen state of California. I can't imagine the religious culture shock I'd be having if I was in the deep south.

As this discussion continues, I would like to modify my suggestion to the OP. Don't mention it at your first rush events, but at some point you can say something reasonably innocuous like "I'm not a religious guy. Is that going to be a problem?" You don't have to go into a diatribe of your belief system, but saying something like the above will shoot up a red flag to a fraternity where it IS an issue. They may ask for more information about what you mean by not religious and at that point I'd probably lay out a short description of your beliefs. I wouldn't use the word agnostic because a lot of people don't know what you mean.
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  #56  
Old 04-27-2012, 02:49 PM
jazing jazing is offline
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Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
iLaughed.

Here's one thought: Don't look at national websites for non-discrimination policies. I assume everyone has them, and I agree that doesn't really seem to be the issue here. Look online for the pledge manuals of the fraternities on your campus -- quite a few fraternities have them online now. Most manuals, I think, will have a section on ritual, and there may be some clues, or maybe even a direct statement, there.

Also, the pledging ceremonies (though some fraternities may not call them that) of some fraternities are open, and some of them can be found online. They may also give some indication.
I'll tell you right now that while organizations have that clause, it doesn't mean each individual chapter feels that way.
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Last edited by jazing; 04-27-2012 at 02:51 PM.
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  #57  
Old 04-27-2012, 02:58 PM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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I'll tell you right now that while organizations have that clause, it doesn't mean each individual chapter feels that way.
Right.

And it doesn't really get to the OP's concern:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilgiant2016 View Post
On one hand I see non-discrimination policies, yet many reference God in mottos or creeds. Please understand that I don't in any way disrespect anothers' beliefs but feel it would be a waste of their time to rush them if there is no way I can, in good conscience be a member. In no way do I want to know initiation secrets, but rather, would I be able to take the oath at FIJI or Beta for example without lying, as I will not compromise on a lifetime commitment.
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  #58  
Old 04-27-2012, 03:10 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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Are there organizations with non-discrimination policies that also require a belief in the big-G Christian (or Jewish) God?
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  #59  
Old 04-27-2012, 03:21 PM
Psi U MC Vito Psi U MC Vito is offline
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Originally Posted by naraht View Post
Absolutely. And once you hit phrasing in the ritual like "Our common god", trying to figure out whether that requires theism, theism + agnosticism or nothing at all gets even trickier.

And conversely, for the Masons, Great Architect of the Universe would be used rather than God.
Um actually it depends. I have heard GOATU, God and Supreme Being all used in varying contexts. I have also heard Almighty Father used.
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  #60  
Old 04-28-2012, 01:01 AM
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AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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I've mentioned this before, but Buddhism and Christianity are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It would be a rarity, but you could be a Buddhist Catholic.
Of course not, but for some Christians who are looking at others it is. The whole point of my story is that each chapter may have a different level of acceptance of "different." in the South and other parts of the Bible belt, being openly agnostic/atheist, even in chapters that don't require a profession of faith may not be accepted.
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