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  #31  
Old 04-26-2012, 03:02 PM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
I think, at their core, fraternity and sorority values are more alike than different, regardless of how they were expressed in words 150+ years ago.
The thing is we're all speculating about how religious (or non-religious) the rituals of other orgs may or may not be. All we have to go on are our own rituals and the public statements that some GLOs make (such as making clear that belief in a Supreme Being, however one understands that, is required, or a notice to PNMs that "our rituals will in no way cause you discomfort with regard to your own beliefs"). While I do not doubt that for members of many orgs, the religious expressions in a ritual are easily seen in a historical context rather than a religious one, I would not assume that holds true for all orgs. I think it is possible that some orgs do still consider them as having real religious context. What I have read in public statements from one or two fraternities suggests that they do, at least nationally. What the view is at the chapter level, again, may be a different story.

That's why I think that all the OP can do is read up to know what specific fraternities say publicly on the subject and meet and talk to the members of chapters on his campus to gauge their attitudes.
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Last edited by MysticCat; 04-26-2012 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Stupid iPad auto-correct typo
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  #32  
Old 04-26-2012, 04:06 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
The thing is we're all speculating about how religious (or non-religious) the rituals of other orgs may or may not be. All we have to go on are our own rituals and the public statements that some GLOs make (such as making clear that belief in a Supreme Being, however one understands that, is required, or a notice to PNMs that "our rituals will in no way cause you discomfort with regard to your own beliefs"). While I do not doubt that for members of many orgs, the religious expressions in a ritual are easily seen in a historical context rather than a religious one, I would not assume that holds true for all orgs. I think it is possible that some orgs do still consider them as having real religious context. What I have read in public statements from one or two fraternities suggests that they do, at least nationally. What the view is at the chapter level, again, may be a different story.

That's why I think that all the OP can do is read up to know what specific fraternities say public ally on the subject and meet and talk to the members of chapters on his campus to gauge their attitudes.
Right, I agree with everything you've said, I'm just saying that he is not going to be able to gather enough information via google search to really know what he is getting into.
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  #33  
Old 04-26-2012, 04:07 PM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
Right, I agree with everything you've said, I'm just saying that he is not going to be able to gather enough information via google search to really know what he is getting into.
Agree completely.
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  #34  
Old 04-26-2012, 04:38 PM
Lilgiant2016 Lilgiant2016 is offline
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Thank you all for yor replies. I will try to answer some of the specifics. Regarding the Pledge of Allegiance, I just say it the way it was written without the words Under God. I just don't feel it is necessary, and I can always say that it is the way my grandparents recited it and I am a traditionalist.

Thank you for the links. I had read a couple of those, which is why I was nervous about bringing up the subject. My mom, who is Greek told me that for those that want me, it won't generally matter, but she is also the one that encouraged me to get a feel for the values of the organizations while keeping an open mind. She suggested I post here, with the warining that I need to be respectful or I would get schooled.
She also said I should thank you all with a recruitment story next fall, but I think I would be way too easy to identify. The school is very small and very greek.

I have decided to ask a senior at one fraternity about his experiences and to maybe ask some of the guys I have met from a few of the schools about if they would see a problem with pledging. I just need to make it sound casual and not pushy or needy. I have a few favorites already at the school, but it has been drilled into my head to keep an open mind.

Thanks again. I will keep checking in.
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  #35  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:06 PM
KDCat KDCat is offline
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You might want to check out the webpage for the national organization of the chapters you are interested in. I know that KD's webpage has a very clear nondiscrimination statement.

If you can't find it on the web page, a polite email to the national organization might give you the information you need.
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  #36  
Old 04-26-2012, 07:28 PM
DubaiSis DubaiSis is offline
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I would think that if a statement of faith is required, it would be required in order to PLEDGE, not to initiate. I mean, it would be something they would tell you is required before even putting you into their system. Getting you half way through the initiation process, only to have you say whoah, back up, would be a HUGE problem. At least in my experience, there's a whole bunch of stuff in my sorority's initiation that we wouldn't want anyone to know before we get to the actual ritual. I mean, the hover crafts happen WAY before the ritual.
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  #37  
Old 04-26-2012, 08:06 PM
TSteven TSteven is offline
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Originally Posted by Lilgiant2016 View Post
I have tried to google references to religion and specific fraternities, but have only come up with Kappa Sig as a definite requirement and Sigma Chi as most likely a no. I understand the need to keep ritual sacred, but I would hate to be moved in the house and ready to initiate only to be told that my lack of religious beliefs mean I am ineligible.
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  #38  
Old 04-26-2012, 08:40 PM
Lilgiant2016 Lilgiant2016 is offline
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OK, so my grammar was messed up there, but am I wrong? I read a few articles about requiring potential pledges to affirm in writing belief in an ever-living God.

I didn't mean any lack of respect for Sigma Chi.
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  #39  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:01 PM
tallgreekalum tallgreekalum is offline
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  #40  
Old 04-26-2012, 10:45 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by KDCat View Post
You might want to check out the webpage for the national organization of the chapters you are interested in. I know that KD's webpage has a very clear nondiscrimination statement.

If you can't find it on the web page, a polite email to the national organization might give you the information you need.
I don't think he's worried about a group not bidding him because of his views, rather, he doesn't want to receive a bid and then go to a pledging ceremony where he has to profess his belief in Christ. There might be other brothers who took the oath without really weighing what it means, but he doesn't roll that way.

DBB - that's a favorite phrase of many of our big bugs (har) and I've heard other groups say it too.
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  #41  
Old 04-26-2012, 11:40 PM
PiKA2001 PiKA2001 is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
Honestly, I think you are limiting yourself unnecessarily if you won't even consider a fraternity because of what might happen to be in its ritual. Some of us choose to view ritual as a historical connection to our founders, that reflects the time in which it was written, and not modern-day realities. Putting my hand on a bible means nothing, because the bible means nothing to me. Believe me, nobody in my initiating chapter cared.

When you go through rush, I think it will be obvious if a fraternity's brothers are especially Christian (or Jewish, I suppose), and you would truly be a bad fit. But for the most part, lot of people (everyone?) question their faith in their college years, and you are not betraying your brothers to go through the motions of ritual without meaning some parts.
I agree. I see motions such as saying, "So help me God", or "Under God", or putting the hand upon a bible as a cultural formality NOT as an affirmation of belief in a god. I also suspect that maybe OP isn't exactly 100% comfortable with his own belief system yet hence the extreme concern over this issue.
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  #42  
Old 04-27-2012, 03:56 AM
DubaiSis DubaiSis is offline
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I wouldn't say that. If you are a non-believer, whether Atheist or Agnostic, you (I) begin to really feel like religion is constantly being crammed down your throat. I do notice all the God comments on everything, and Christian statements of faith in particular. Some of it I just have to tolerate (and this is how I feel about the religion'y parts of sorority life I've experienced) and some (under God in the PoA) are personally offensive. When I was going through rush I hadn't fully developed my belief system so it didn't bother me, but I can tell you if one of the nonsectarian sororities were available to me back then, it probably would have been quite appealing. I choose to consider the religious aspects more a testament to the times and not as much about what the founders would expect of their members 100+ years later. And I don't think that's hair-splitting, since sororities that actively wouldn't accept Catholics or Jews back then think nothing of it now.
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  #43  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:18 AM
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AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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I agree with DubaisSis. Unfortunately, fraternities are much harder to read than sororities. We have to play on a pretty even field with recruitment so we're fairly transparent on this. I think it is pretty hard to figure out which fraternities are accepting. Really, now one wears their religion on a sign on their chest, and to assume that some one is Hindu or Buddhist is kinda profiling. You might be wrong. I remember a poster on GC saying ATO had a big agenda to turn out strong Christian men, so I think you can add that to your list of Christian orgs. Even in organizations that are welcoming, things can be difficult. I pledged with a Laotian girl who was Buddhist. I found out later that one of our Catholic members threw a fit that she was getting initiated because she couldn't understand ritual as a Buddhist. We were in the South. That little Buddhist is a great AOII, and for spite, she recruited her sister to join her in the chapter so we could have two! Oh the horror!
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  #44  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:24 AM
AlphaFrog AlphaFrog is offline
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I agree with DubaisSis. Unfortunately, fraternities are much harder to read than sororities. We have to play on a pretty even field with recruitment so we're fairly transparent on this. I think it is pretty hard to figure out which fraternities are accepting. Really, now one wears their religion on a sign on their chest, and to assume that some one is Hindu or Buddhist is kinda profiling. You might be wrong. I remember a poster on GC saying ATO had a big agenda to turn out strong Christian men, so I think you can add that to your list of Christian orgs. Even in organizations that are welcoming, things can be difficult. I pledged with a Laotian girl who was Buddhist. I found out later that one of our Catholic members threw a fit that she was getting initiated because she couldn't understand ritual as a Buddhist. We were in the South. That little Buddhist is a great AOII, and for spite, she recruited her sister to join her in the chapter so we could have two! Oh the horror!
I've mentioned this before, but Buddhism and Christianity are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It would be a rarity, but you could be a Buddhist Catholic.
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  #45  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:54 AM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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I've mentioned this before, but Buddhism and Christianity are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It would be a rarity, but you could be a Buddhist Catholic.
Jew-Bus are quite common. So much so that we have a slang term for them.

It sounds like the OP is at a school with formal fraternity rush, and while he doesn't want to be "that guy", it sounds like he will have to at least hint at the issue. Do the fraternities themselves mention it? It seems like they should, but I don't know if that is common (whereas I think it is fairly common for certain NPC groups to talk religion by round three, where applicable).
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