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  #46  
Old 09-05-2011, 11:25 AM
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But no, they can't. The chapters can cut the rushee, but not the other way around. That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around. As I understand from rules that have been posted or linked here, if she fails to attend a party, she's cut from rush completely. That's coercion, the way I see it.
Yes, the PNMs CAN "cut" chapters IF they have enough invitations to spare. You know, your perfect DG recruitment where you just wandered over to the house and chatted with the girls and ignored everyone else wouldn't seem so idyllic if you hadn't gotten a bid and were left wondering if there was a way to get to know ALL the groups instead of just wasting your time with one that didn't want you. Because that's the reality of recruitment. Have you ever even helped with modern recruitment?
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  #47  
Old 09-05-2011, 12:00 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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I was going to bring it up. As much as it may suck for the PNM to have to attend a party that she doesn't like, it sucks a HELL of a lot more for the sorority to be buffaloed into asking back women whose presence at a party could turn off the PNMs they DO want. Especially when the Rho Chis (and people on here) keep saying things like "look around at the other rushees! Those will be your pledge sisters!" I'm glad no one ever said that to me or I might have made really horrendous decisions.
Oh, sure, but I've also seen collegians decide that Patti PNM is their OMGFAVORITE in round 1, and then when Patti doesn't show up in round 2, they find someone else to rush crush on. There is nothing wrong with Patti, she just didn't shine as much in the first 15-minute meeting.

I think it's pretty analogous to PNM's choosing chapters. If there's a struggling chapter that's like half the size, or unhoused when all the others have gorgeous mansions, or something like that, it's one thing to sorta mentally write it off. It's another thing when virtually all the chapters are close to the same size, over 100 women each, and the main differences between them are the tent talk.

(Of course, my experiences are with a much larger recruitment than yours...I'm talking about first impressions when there are tons of PNM's that nobody really knows)
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  #48  
Old 09-05-2011, 12:06 PM
groovypq groovypq is offline
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I was going to bring it up. As much as it may suck for the PNM to have to attend a party that she doesn't like, it sucks a HELL of a lot more for the sorority to be buffaloed into asking back women whose presence at a party could turn off the PNMs they DO want. Especially when the Rho Chis (and people on here) keep saying things like "look around at the other rushees! Those will be your pledge sisters!" I'm glad no one ever said that to me or I might have made really horrendous decisions.
THIS. While I appreciate that RFM can benefit my chapter, we've also been told by our former GL advisor (and allegedly the RFM specialist as well), "You can invite back X number of women and you'd better invite X, not X minus 1." And it doesn't help a chapter shed the "they take anyone" image when that PNM no one else wanted ends up there.
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  #49  
Old 09-05-2011, 12:07 PM
DubaiSis DubaiSis is offline
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This all goes back to trying to get everyone involved to use as much of the approximately 120 minutes they have to get to know each other. The sororities need to make cuts but ideally will only cut the minimum number and the rushees should attend the maximum number because 120 minutes tops is a ridiculously short amount of money to make these decisions that cost thousands of dollars and a lifetime of friendships.

That being said, if a girl doesn't want to attend certain parties I guess she shouldn't be forced. I think she should, but it's her decision. So many girls do not go through the process with an open mind that giving that house another chance is really going to be a waste of everyone's time. I also would like to see some sort of "with regrets" system where a girl cuts a chapter or the chapter cuts a girl and later on down the process either side has an opening of sorts and can get back onto their list. So many girls have full schedules the 2nd day and get slammed on day 3. There may have been houses that wanted to see her again who she suddenly has space for. Is this too complicated for the computer to work out or for the people involved to understand?
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  #50  
Old 09-05-2011, 12:22 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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That being said, if a girl doesn't want to attend certain parties I guess she shouldn't be forced. I think she should, but it's her decision. So many girls do not go through the process with an open mind that giving that house another chance is really going to be a waste of everyone's time. I also would like to see some sort of "with regrets" system where a girl cuts a chapter or the chapter cuts a girl and later on down the process either side has an opening of sorts and can get back onto their list. So many girls have full schedules the 2nd day and get slammed on day 3. There may have been houses that wanted to see her again who she suddenly has space for. Is this too complicated for the computer to work out or for the people involved to understand?
It is really tough for a house to not have enough women at parties, and it can become obvious to other PNM's. I really don't think it is so horrible to spend half an hour at a chapter you are not interested in and be reasonably polite. Oh, and chapters talk to one another, believe me.

There is nothing complicated about programming the software to allow "re-invites" for women who do not have the maximum number of parties. The issue, however, is that chapters don't want to look desperate by inviting women to round 3 who weren't at round 2. I have seen it happen, on occasion, when there was a legitimate mistake*, but if all chapters are following RFM, it shouldn't be that necessary.

*NOT A COMPUTER ERROR. A HUMAN BEING mixing up two PNM's with the same name.
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  #51  
Old 09-05-2011, 12:32 PM
Old_Row Old_Row is offline
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Mutual selection truly exists for only the top PNMs and top recruiting chapters.
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  #52  
Old 09-05-2011, 12:49 PM
BraveMaroon BraveMaroon is offline
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Mutual selection truly exists for only the top PNMs and top recruiting chapters.
Awww, someone's been reading http://totalfratmove.com.

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  #53  
Old 09-05-2011, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AOII Angel View Post
Yes, the PNMs CAN "cut" chapters IF they have enough invitations to spare. You know, your perfect DG recruitment where you just wandered over to the house and chatted with the girls and ignored everyone else wouldn't seem so idyllic if you hadn't gotten a bid and were left wondering if there was a way to get to know ALL the groups instead of just wasting your time with one that didn't want you. Because that's the reality of recruitment. Have you ever even helped with modern recruitment?
As I said, some have so kindly* reminded me I didn't go through the type of formal rush that some, or most, schools now use. Had I not been invited to DG, I would not be greek. I seriously doubt I would regret it, but it's one of those things I can never know.

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

I've also heard "it's the system we're stuck with". To my mind, that's acceptance of status quo with no attempt at improvement, but again I realize I may be in the minority. I'm certainly not on the same page as the decision makers.

So you have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not silence mine.
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  #54  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:01 PM
Titchou Titchou is offline
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For the last time, the rule says "MAY" not will. So if a campus is forcing women who do not attend a party because they simply don't want to, the AA should be told. I'm not saying she's going to do anything. I'm just saying she should be made aware because she may not know and may need to investigate what's going on. If she says she knows and has blessed it because X, Y and z, then fine. At least she knows.

Good grief, ladies!
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  #55  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:09 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.
This is how fraternity rush works, for the most part. Fraternities also seem able to survive in a variety of sizes and spin it to their advantage (whether large, medium or small). Sororities don't. The smallest is usually looked at as the "weakest." Whether this is a male vs female thing or just what we've gotten used to, it's hard to say. You even hear guys saying this about sororities - it's not just a Panhellenic or nationals thing. However, it would be a hell of a leap of faith for the sororities to, at this point, throw quota and total out the window. It would most certainly bankrupt many, many chapters, if not a few national groups.

After 150 years, I don't think anyone wants to say "oh, let's just let the chips fall where they may."

carnation or someone who has more local insight could clarify, but I think a "survival of the fittest" situation is basically what has happened over the years at Arkansas, who just welcomed pledge classes of 130 members.
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  #56  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Titchou Titchou is offline
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I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.
I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. It appears to me that you are advocating all the power in the hands of the PNM and none in the chapter's by saying that "a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses."

Are you saying that we have to have her in our homes with no regard to who/what she may be? That's what it looks like you are saying. Do you really want your daughter in a group who has to open their house/suite to whomever may want in???? Yikes! if that's the case.

As a former director of housing I am vehemently against this. There is enough trouble to go around with those we have vetted (thru the sponsor form process) and who received a bid. Let's not let anyone just wander over.

Last edited by Titchou; 09-05-2011 at 01:26 PM.
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  #57  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:43 PM
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AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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As I said, some have so kindly* reminded me I didn't go through the type of formal rush that some, or most, schools now use. Had I not been invited to DG, I would not be greek. I seriously doubt I would regret it, but it's one of those things I can never know.

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

I've also heard "it's the system we're stuck with". To my mind, that's acceptance of status quo with no attempt at improvement, but again I realize I may be in the minority. I'm certainly not on the same page as the decision makers.

So you have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not silence mine.
What's not "perfect" about the system is NOT that the women have to meet ALL the sororities but that decisions have to be made quickly with little information. Your plan doesn't fix that. There are still hundreds to over a thousand women going through recruitment at these schools. The majority of the women going through have NEVER heard of some of these chapters but happily find a home as a FIRST choice after meeting the women there.

I love how you latch onto the WORST case scenarios and present your small school recruitment model with likely a horrendous placement percentage as a solution. Good for you that it worked and that YOU wouldn't have cared that it hadn't. The problem is that MOST other women DO care when they go bidless. We get it, you had a great experience. Tout your experience, but put the appropriate caveats of # of PNMs rushing, # of PNMs placed, size of chapters and number of women who went bidless. Otherwise your stories are just cute stories from a bitter old women who likes to complain about walking up hill to and from school. BTW, silencing opinions go both ways, so trying to bully me with your overtly hostile post is not cool.
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Last edited by AOII Angel; 09-05-2011 at 01:45 PM.
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  #58  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:59 PM
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I'm also tired of posters acting as if recruitment has not been improved. It has, it will continue to be, and to act as though recruitment is the same as rush was a 100 years ago indicates a real lack of knowledge as to what modern recruitment is. We hear from many of those for whom recruitment did not work because those for whom it did are BUSY WITH THEIR SISTERS - not to mention the human tendency for people to complain when things go wrong, and not acknowledge when things go well. Look at the numbers - the vast majority of pnms WILL find a home and WILL have a positive Greek experience.

eta - As far as I know, Titchou, collegiate panhellenics have to submit their recruitment rules to the area panhellenic adviser, so she would already be aware of the requirement to attend all parties. Please correct me if my experience is not true of every campus.
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  #59  
Old 09-05-2011, 02:03 PM
violetpretty violetpretty is offline
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Had I not been invited to DG, I would not be greek. I seriously doubt DG would regret it, but it's one of those things I can never know.
It has nothing to do with the fact that your recruitment was different. Many advisors and National officers went through different styles of recruitment. It has everything to do with the fact that you have no involvement with recruitment today. You might understand otherwise.
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Originally Posted by DGTess View Post
I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".)
In a sense, the pref invites are her "bids". Not literally of course. The PNM is on the chapter's bid list if a chapter invites her to pref. When she ranks them on her MRABA, she is putting them in order of preference, supposing she could choose from all of them.

Please, explain how this is not "right". You know why every NPC supports the RFM/forcing PNMs to return to all chapters to which they're invited? Because it benefits ALL NPCs. Every NPC, yes, even DG, has chapters somewhere that struggle. Working together (giving up some autonomy) and agreeing to recruitment practices (fairness) that help struggling chapters helps every NPC.

I really can't believe that you're an adult if you can't wrap your mind around the fact that if you want something, sometimes you have to jump through hoops. It's like the same people who complain about why they have to pay dues or why they have to visit nursing homes if they want to go to formal. No one forces anyone to be part of a sorority, but if you want to be a member, you have to agree to certain things.
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I've also heard "it's the system we're stuck with". To my mind, that's acceptance of status quo with no attempt at improvement, but again I realize I may be in the minority. I'm certainly not on the same page as the decision makers.
You're not on the same page as the decision makers because you're an ostrich with its head in the ground who hasn't actually observed recruitment today. Your opinions are based on nothing more than your singular experience from 25+ years ago.

Your proposed fraternity style recruitment would be a step backward. Thank goodness we actually moved forward from that. I cringe when I read recruitment stories from the 80s and before and I see how PNMs have a full slate of invites from chapters who aren't really interested in them, then *poof* cut before preference.

RFM is a huge improvement. PNMs are finding homes (and would you believe it, they're HAPPY) in chapters they may have not considered before. Not everyone knows where they want to join when recruitment begins, so in. Plus, when more women are placed, there's less anti-Greek sentiment on campus. Chapters of every NPC would be far less stable and would close without it. Even chapters of DG would close.
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  #60  
Old 09-05-2011, 02:10 PM
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I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. It appears to me that you are advocating all the power in the hands of the PNM and none in the chapter's by saying that "a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses."

Are you saying that we have to have her in our homes with no regard to who/what she may be? That's what it looks like you are saying. Do you really want your daughter in a group who has to open their house/suite to whomever may want in???? Yikes! if that's the case.

As a former director of housing I am vehemently against this. There is enough trouble to go around with those we have vetted (thru the sponsor form process) and who received a bid. Let's not let anyone just wander over.
No. I'm saying both should have equal opportunity to decline invitations - either issuing or accepting. As it currently stands, as I understand it, a rushee must attend all events to which she's invited (though there seems to be some dissension on this point, I've seen the policy in documents linked from this site), but may not decline an invitation to an event if she has room on her schedule. In my mind, that is not "mutual selection".
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