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Risk Management - Hazing & etc. This forum covers Risk Management topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorder Prevention, Liability, etc.


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  #1  
Old 03-12-2009, 02:37 AM
msl2008 msl2008 is offline
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If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

So since there are many news articles about hazing and everyone saying how hazing is wrong yada yada, I'm curious as to what anti-hazing people would do for a new member education program that would differentiate the greek system from another student organization besides the fact that you guys live together or hangout together and bs like that.

Now I am against certain parts of hazing ie doing anything blatantly stupid like binge drinking or paddling or hitting pledges. However, I do not see a problem with doing physical exercises ie situps/pushups/running etc or screaming/yelling at a pledge. I think that when under emotional and psychological stress, people can go above and beyond what they would under normal circumstances and thus can learn a great deal about themselves. If the pledge can't handle this type of thing, he/she is always free to drop/quit/leave whenever they choose. Greeks are not gangs. We do not beat you if you want to leave.

And while reading some anti-hazing sites, I can't help but wonder why people are so proud that they were showered with gifts throughout their pledgeship. Doesn't that basically mean that you didn't do anything and yet I guess you were so rich or famous or b/c of who your parents are the fraternity/sorority decided to treat you like royalty? Isn't that the problem with Americans these days? Everyone feels like they're entitled to stuff and no one wants to put in the good old fashioned hard work anymore?

Now obviously I think that when people die there is an obvious problem. However, out of the hundreds of news articles I've read and anti-hazing sites I've visited, I do not recall any that had someone dying b/c he/she was doing pushups/situps/running etc. They were all either drinking or being beaten to death.

I am not really here to argue with anyone. However, I would like to know some constructive thoughts as to why people believe hazing is wrong. And remember, I am NOT including binge drinking/paddling etc in my argument b/c I also agree those should not be in any pledge program.

I look forward to an interesting discussion and to all your inputs.
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  #2  
Old 03-12-2009, 02:50 AM
KSUViolet06 KSUViolet06 is offline
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Holy omg there's like 2343456454 threads about hazing and what's wrong/right/whatever in this forum already Batman!

Yes, the problem with America is that sororities don't haze their new members enough. If only sororities treated their new members/pledges more like crap, the world would be a better place.

America doesn't need Barack, better healthcare, better schools, or a bailout. It needs MORE HAZING and POORER TREATMENT of PLEDGES.

Thank you. I have seen the light.

LOL. You need a life buddy.
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  #3  
Old 03-12-2009, 03:51 AM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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KSUviolet.. I can sense your sarcasm. But I really think that if pledges do pushups, it will make them better people. I mean, think about it... push yourself up from the floor a few times, and you build character and learn more about your Greek organization! And what better way to become friends with someone than to be yelled at by them! Even Obama couldn't write that stuff into a bill. This is genius.

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  #4  
Old 03-12-2009, 07:28 AM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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LOL @ KSU and ASTalumna

Why are your first two posts in hazing threads? Anyway...as stated previously, there are tons of threads on this topic. I'm bored, though, so here's some input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msl2008 View Post
So since there are many news articles about hazing and everyone saying how hazing is wrong yada yada, I'm curious as to what anti-hazing people would do for a new member education program that would differentiate the greek system from another student organization besides the fact that you guys live together or hangout together and bs like that.
How about doing what your founders envisioned and following your official pledge/new member program?

Quote:
Now I am against certain parts of hazing ie doing anything blatantly stupid like binge drinking or paddling or hitting pledges. However, I do not see a problem with doing physical exercises ie situps/pushups/running etc or screaming/yelling at a pledge. I think that when under emotional and psychological stress, people can go above and beyond what they would under normal circumstances and thus can learn a great deal about themselves. If the pledge can't handle this type of thing, he/she is always free to drop/quit/leave whenever they choose. Greeks are not gangs. We do not beat you if you want to leave.
I laughed at this, considering your post in the "Does Your Chapter Haze" thread. Apparently, you agree with paddling in that thread.

Quote:
And while reading some anti-hazing sites, I can't help but wonder why people are so proud that they were showered with gifts throughout their pledgeship. Doesn't that basically mean that you didn't do anything and yet I guess you were so rich or famous or b/c of who your parents are the fraternity/sorority decided to treat you like royalty? Isn't that the problem with Americans these days? Everyone feels like they're entitled to stuff and no one wants to put in the good old fashioned hard work anymore?
They are probably proud because they're showing what they're worth AS MEMBERS. You can pledge your ass off, but if you're not doing anything as a member, it means nothing. I can't tell you how many people (in my organization and others) were bad-ass pledges, then fell off the face of the Earth after getting letters. I'd rather have someone who proves himself by helping out the organization rather than by exhibiting the most emotional/psychological scarring.

Quote:
Now obviously I think that when people die there is an obvious problem. However, out of the hundreds of news articles I've read and anti-hazing sites I've visited, I do not recall any that had someone dying b/c he/she was doing pushups/situps/running etc. They were all either drinking or being beaten to death.
The problem is that the little things eventually turn into big things. "We're just yelling at them" turns into "we're just yelling and having them do pushups" turns into "we're just yelling, making them do pushups, and swatting them ONE time" and so on.

Quote:
I am not really here to argue with anyone. However, I would like to know some constructive thoughts as to why people believe hazing is wrong. And remember, I am NOT including binge drinking/paddling etc in my argument b/c I also agree those should not be in any pledge program.

I look forward to an interesting discussion and to all your inputs.
Read the hundreds of threads in the Risk Management forum. They provide some interesting insight.
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  #5  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:05 AM
ECUJacob ECUJacob is offline
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I believe this argument will go on for quite some time.

Quote:
I'm curious as to what anti-hazing people would do for a new member education program that would differentiate the greek system from another student organization besides the fact that you guys live together or hangout together and bs like that.
There are countless examples of new member education programs that do not involve hazing. I agree with knight_shadow:

Quote:
How about doing what your founders envisioned and following your official pledge/new member program?
msl2008, have you considered creating a point system (excluding hazing) that incorporates your organizations central values? For example, the chapter I advise uses a point system that awards a pledge points for:

1) academic achievement (A's or B's on tests, 2.8+ GPA, etc.)
2) community service (number of hours, etc.)
3) participation in intramurals (spectating/supporting, participating as an athlete, etc.)
4) participation in other student organizations (leadership roles, membership, etc.)
5) recruitment of future members (providing names, bringing interested men out to events, etc.)
6) knowledge of history/lore/songs (grades on quizzes and final exam)
7) participation in chapter, pledge class, or University events.
8) Chapter/Brotherhood vote that rank the pledges in last week of pledging.
9) Financial responsibility (payment of dues early or on time)

Each section has a minimum point requirement and there is an overall minimum that must be met to be considered for initiation. As you can see, this system still requires a large effort on their part to to get the points, but all while being a GOOD member. The highest number of points gets the lowest roll number in the pledge class.

Quote:
Now I am against certain parts of hazing ie doing anything blatantly stupid like binge drinking or paddling or hitting pledges... Greeks are not gangs. We do not beat you if you want to leave.
Really? Here are a just few examples to prove you wrong. The members may not have been leaving the organization, but clearly the members aren't afraid to use assault (sometimes lethal) to get their point across.

Fayetteville State University robes frat beating complaints

Fraternity members plead no contest to beating pledge at Florida A&M University

3 Plead Guilty To EKU Fraternity Hazing

Quote:
Doesn't that basically mean that you didn't do anything and yet I guess you were so rich or famous or b/c of who your parents are the fraternity/sorority decided to treat you like royalty
Have you considered that maybe it wasn't because of their legacy status, but instead because of their character, dedication, and personality?

Quote:
problem. However, out of the hundreds of news articles I've read and anti-hazing sites I've visited, I do not recall any that had someone dying b/c he/she was doing pushups/situps/running etc. They were all either drinking or being beaten to death.
Again, you are wrong.

Chico State's "A Fraternity Hazing Gone Wrong"

Fraternity Man Guilty of Hazing in a Death
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  #6  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:34 AM
msl2008 msl2008 is offline
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msl2008, have you considered creating a point system (excluding hazing) that incorporates your organizations central values? For example, the chapter I advise uses a point system that awards a pledge points for:

1) academic achievement (A's or B's on tests, 2.8+ GPA, etc.)
2) community service (number of hours, etc.)
3) participation in intramurals (spectating/supporting, participating as an athlete, etc.)
4) participation in other student organizations (leadership roles, membership, etc.)
5) recruitment of future members (providing names, bringing interested men out to events, etc.)
6) knowledge of history/lore/songs (grades on quizzes and final exam)
7) participation in chapter, pledge class, or University events.
8) Chapter/Brotherhood vote that rank the pledges in last week of pledging.
9) Financial responsibility (payment of dues early or on time)

Each section has a minimum point requirement and there is an overall minimum that must be met to be considered for initiation. As you can see, this system still requires a large effort on their part to to get the points, but all while being a GOOD member. The highest number of points gets the lowest roll number in the pledge class.

Ok...assuming you do use the point system right? How does that show any type of brotherhood. That just means that you have time to give to the organization. Good, but why should I trust or treat this person any differently then anyone I could've met in any random club?


Again, you are wrong.

Chico State's "A Fraternity Hazing Gone Wrong"

Fraternity Man Guilty of Hazing in a Death[/quote]

These 2 deaths aren't b/c of pushups. One is b/c of water intoxication and one is b/c he was basically beaten to death.

KSUviolet, I voted for Obama back in November b/c I thought he was better than McCain. However, I do not think we need the bailout or healthcare for everyone. What we need is to let people be responsible for themselves. I am sick and tired of Americans constantly complaining about everything and anything like little kids. If you bought a house you can't afford. Tough. It was your choice. If you didn't save anything for retirement. Tough. The next generation is probably going to have to take care of themselves b/c Medicare and Social Security (which is a giant Ponzi Scheme btw) so as Americans we should learn to be responsible and take responsibility for our actions. Likewise, if you're truly an adult at 18, I would think you would know right from wrong so I would assume you know when to quit.

And as I said, this thread is assuming hazing involves pushups/situps whatever so please don't show me things about getting beaten to death or water poisoning b/c I'm already sold on those.

I like to compare it to a football practice or any sport for that matter. If you're hydrated and pushed yet people are more careful, what exactly is the problem? I agree things get out of hand. However, let's assume they don't. Would your thoughts be any different? Say those kids never died? Would we still be having this discussion?
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  #7  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:46 AM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msl2008 View Post
Ok...assuming you do use the point system right? How does that show any type of brotherhood. That just means that you have time to give to the organization. Good, but why should I trust or treat this person any differently then anyone I could've met in any random club?
How does someone whooping your ass show brotherhood? I've said this several times before -- the brotherhood that I've felt in my (almost) 7 years in my organization has come from casual interactions with brothers. The events of my pledge program were interesting for stories, but did not determine how my life as a Greek panned out.
Quote:
KSUviolet, I voted for Obama back in November b/c I thought he was better than McCain. However, I do not think we need the bailout or healthcare for everyone. What we need is to let people be responsible for themselves. I am sick and tired of Americans constantly complaining about everything and anything like little kids. If you bought a house you can't afford. Tough. It was your choice. If you didn't save anything for retirement. Tough. The next generation is probably going to have to take care of themselves b/c Medicare and Social Security (which is a giant Ponzi Scheme btw) so as Americans we should learn to be responsible and take responsibility for our actions. Likewise, if you're truly an adult at 18, I would think you would know right from wrong so I would assume you know when to quit.
LOL I think you missed the sarcasm in her post...

Quote:
And as I said, this thread is assuming hazing involves pushups/situps whatever so please don't show me things about getting beaten to death or water poisoning b/c I'm already sold on those.
Like I said in my earlier post, the "light" hazing is usually a gateway for more severe activity.

Quote:
I like to compare it to a football practice or any sport for that matter. If you're hydrated and pushed yet people are more careful, what exactly is the problem? I agree things get out of hand. However, let's assume they don't. Would your thoughts be any different? Say those kids never died? Would we still be having this discussion?
We can't assume that hazing doesn't get out of hand because it does. If people didn't get hurt and die, we wouldn't have hazing laws popping up. 18- to 21-year-olds are going to act silly in general, so giving them the option to have a hazing free-for-all isn't smart.
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Last edited by knight_shadow; 03-12-2009 at 11:14 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #8  
Old 03-12-2009, 11:08 AM
Kansas City Kansas City is offline
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Knight shadow beat me to the question ... How do push-ups and sit-ups prove brotherhood more more than living your organizations values (example of the point system)? I find that sisterhood (and probably fraternal brotherhood) is better created through participation in organization events and interaction with members doing everyday things like going to the library instead of making a pledge do meaningless things like run laps while being yelled at.
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Old 03-12-2009, 11:38 AM
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MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas City View Post
Knight shadow beat me to the question ... How do push-ups and sit-ups prove brotherhood more more than living your organizations values (example of the point system)? I find that sisterhood (and probably fraternal brotherhood) is better created through participation in organization events and interaction with members doing everyday things like going to the library instead of making a pledge do meaningless things like run laps while being yelled at.
Okay, I know that there are lots of discussions on this elsewhere, but I'm going to go ahead and jump in and basically repeat (with a little modification) what I said in one of those discussions (called Hazing Works!).

Before I offer my $0.02, I'll state for the record that I do not advocate hazing and that I support my fraternity's anti-hazing initiatives. What I say has more to do with thinking about replacements for hazing than supporting hazing.

To address what KansasCity said that I bolded, I'm not sure that males and females are the same in this regard. We talk about building brotherhood and bonding, and I think that is very important. But there is an equally important component, maybe more so for males, that I think often is not addressed. That second component is rite of passage.

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

Globally and historically, rites of passage typically involve what might be termed testing, trial, or ordeal. That is, prior to actual initiation into manhood, the initiate must prove himself and his worth (to himself and to the men he wishes to join) by undergoing and passing one or more trials or tests. To be quite honest, I think there is something inbred in males wanting and needing to prove themselves in this way. Rituals (and here I am using the term broadly) that succeed for boys understand this and tap into this primal need. An example: initiation into the Order of the Arrow, a camping brotherhood for Boy Scouts, is preceeded by a weekend-long "Ordeal" that involves no talking, manual labor in a service project (with others, which can be challenging with no talking), camping alone in the woods, meager meals, and the like. Upon completion and admission to the initiation ceremony, a boy feels like he has really accomplished something, proven himself and earned his place among the initiated. I know I did; I still think of Ordeal weekend as a pivotal weekend of my youth.

Quite simply I think, where hazing "works" (if that is the right word), it is when it taps into this primal desire to be tested and proved worthy, which in turn engenders loyalty to the group one has been found worthy to join and promotes bonding among those tested together. When potential initiates go through "testing" together and help each other get through it, then they learn that they can count on each other no matter what.

So, what makes hazing "work" (again, if that is the right word) is that it satisfies the need to be tested and proven worthy, and that in the process it teaches potential initiates to rely on each other and help each other in overcoming any trials.

Again, I do not advocate hazing. The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals and satisfy this need to be tested and proven worthy in a way that doesn't involve hazing.
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Old 03-12-2009, 11:44 AM
AOEforme AOEforme is offline
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What do you hope to gain by making your NMs do pushups, chores, laps?

Our NM program (as I believe all official NM programs do) has a purpose for each required section.

-- Interviews with active sisters: Learn more about the active sisters within your organization.
-- Candidate Class Project: Develop a candidate class philanthropy, while learning leadership and planning an event of your own. Good for management and cultivating the values of my organization
-- Quizzes and Final Exam (which can be retaken as many times as need be): learn the fundamentals of the organization
-- Sexual Assualt and Alcohol Education Classes
-- Pledge Retreat: bonding with actives and candidates.
-- etc.

How does demeaning your NMs achieve the ideals and objectives of your organization?

That's why I'm anti-hazing: not just because it's demeaning and dangerous, but because it accomplishes nothing towards making your NM a human being worthy of your organization's letters.
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Old 03-12-2009, 11:47 AM
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Watching someone beat the crap out of my pledge class is not going to make me love and respect them and feel a bond of brother/sisterhood. Just my two cents.
The OP made very clear that he is not talking about beating up on pledges.
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:14 PM
Kansas City Kansas City is offline
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mls2008 - Are you sure that you joined a Greek organization and not the army?

I can understand a need for what you may call non-harmful hazing for certain organizations (sports teams, military, etc.) because they serve the organizational standards of having a physically strong body but to my limited knowledge, most recognized Greek organizations prefer to focus on values outside of a member's physical ability.

Whereas most collegiate Greek organizations focus on values such as strong mind and service to community, why do you feel the need to test a new members brawn? Large biceps and running laps do nothing to further the organization's goals where study hours, philanthropic participation and perhaps new member quizzes better help to reach the organizations ideals.

Instead of requiring physical tasks and yelling at new members to "prove their worth", why couldn't your members prove their worthiness by donating # hours to a philanthropy or by achieving a pledgeclass GPA greater than 3.5/4.0?
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Old 03-12-2009, 01:28 PM
BadCat25 BadCat25 is offline
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Whatever any of you think about hazing the fact remains that if you haze your university will shut you down. Many of you just can't seem to understand that.
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Old 03-12-2009, 01:51 PM
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Whatever any of you think about hazing the fact remains that if you haze your university will shut you down. Many of you just can't seem to understand that.
I think everyone understands that's a possibility (in some places more than others). Many just choose to ignore the law/university policy where this is concerned.

Hazing hasn't become an issue in recent years due to the morality of it all. I wish I could say our organizations were all so self-conscious regarding such moral issues. Hazing became bad juju because of the liability issues involved with it. That's why when you look at your organization's policy as to what constitutes hazing, you have some odd things there, e.g., scavenger hunts.

Be that as it may, the law is what the law is and our organization's and school's policies are what they are. We follow those rules or we suffer the consequences. If we think attaching a moralistic argument to it helps, so be it, the moral argument does fit and it does make sense within the context of today's culture and today's 'more evolved' state of morality.

As for effective alternatives, if you're part of a national organization, I guarantee that your national organization has developed some sort of national programming which you're probably being encouraged to adopt at the chapter level.

Through (most) national programming, we can provide those same rights of passage, engender that same loyalty, basically work to the same ends without placing the futures of our respective organizations (national and local) in jeopardy.

It's hard to discuss that with any particularity though -- national programming, while similar with some organizations is very dissimilar with others (e.g., Sig Ep).
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msl2008 View Post
So since there are many news articles about hazing and everyone saying how hazing is wrong yada yada, I'm curious as to what anti-hazing people would do for a new member education program that would differentiate the greek system from another student organization
Let's see...it's so simple that everyone overlooks the obvious...

Be truly different than other organizations (of any kind)...and (gasp!) DON'T HAZE your new members! Demonstrate respect (that would be truly original!)

Rule #1: If you couldn't invite your parents, or the parents of the potential new member to witness what is going on, then it is hazing.

Rule #2: If there is any confusion, see Rule #1.
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