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Risk Management - Hazing & etc. This forum covers Risk Management topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorder Prevention, Liability, etc.


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  #1  
Old 02-07-2017, 09:23 AM
LaneSig LaneSig is offline
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1 Dead After Fight Between Fraternity Brothers

http://patch.com/maryland/rockville/...ernity-brother

Two members of the Phi Delta Theta chapter at Indiana University of Pennsylvania got into a fight Friday evening. During the fight, one brother began to choke the other leading to the second brother to collapse. He later died at the hospital.

This is what happens with guys many times. Tempers flair up over absolutely nothing, then punches start flying. Usually it cools down and becomes a funny story within a day or two. Not this time.

The police have described the first brother as being very distraught over what happened. He is currently being charged with assault while the prosecutor's office waits for more details.
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  #2  
Old 02-07-2017, 06:18 PM
FSUZeta FSUZeta is offline
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Oh my gosh! How crazy!
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  #3  
Old 02-07-2017, 07:02 PM
navane navane is offline
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How awful!

If the article's accounting of the witness statements is true, I wouldn't be surprised if manslaughter charges are filed.
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Old 02-08-2017, 05:53 PM
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This is so sad. I turned on Good Morning America today just as Robin Roberts was interviewing legal correspondent Sunny Hostin about this case. Robin said, "when you hear frat house, you automatically think hazing, but this wasn't a hazing incident." Then they discussed whether colleges and universities bear responsibility for this (as Robin said, given all the cases you hear about like this across the country), and Sunny said the courts have come down on both sides, but she feel universities bear some responsibility and need to prevent these situations.

I'm not sure how universities are responsible for a random fight between friends that leads to a death, or how they can predict or intervene or stop this kind of tragedy from happening, but the link to fraternities as a "cause" seemed to be the prevailing opinion.

They were going to further discuss it on the View this morning, when Sunny was on. Did anyone see that?
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:25 PM
KDCat KDCat is offline
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That's not a manslaughter charge. It's a murder charge. The defendant was on top of an unconscious victim, choking him. He had to be pulled off of the victim. Intent to kill was clearly there. It wasn't a unlucky punch that connected badly.
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Old 02-11-2017, 11:47 PM
navane navane is offline
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That's not a manslaughter charge. It's a murder charge. The defendant was on top of an unconscious victim, choking him. He had to be pulled off of the victim. Intent to kill was clearly there. It wasn't a unlucky punch that connected badly.

Ok, well, I'm not a lawyer. It's just that two young friends fist fighting in the street didn't sound like premeditated murder. A heat of passion crime is generally charged as voluntary manslaughter, yes? If the story comes out something like the one was mad and went out of the house and down the street looking to find the other one, then I could see a first or second degree murder charge. I work in a dual fire/law enforcement job and "get" the opportunity to see people fist fighting all of the time. If you're a lawyer, I can see why we might have slightly different angles on it. Since nobody had been arrested yet, I was referring to the very *least* charge that I could imagine being filed.

Either way, an awful situation all around.
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Last edited by navane; 02-12-2017 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 02-12-2017, 06:29 AM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Sounds like pretty clear Murder in the 1st Degree to me. Intent can be formed in an instant.

That said....

Pennsylvania, please stop being in the news for these things.
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:41 PM
Tom Earp Tom Earp is offline
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Sounds like pretty clear Murder in the 1st Degree to me. Intent can be formed in an instant.

That said....

Pennsylvania, please stop being in the news for these things.
Kevin, I normally do not disagree with you but I will here.

You being a lawyer and me being an ex cop there is a difference.

Unless this guy planned to kill him before the fight, that is first degree. If it happened during a fight with out fore thought it would be manslaughter.

It would be up to the prosecutor to prove first degree. Defense of course would fight that and get it thrown out.
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:25 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Kevin, I normally do not disagree with you but I will here.

You being a lawyer and me being an ex cop there is a difference.

Unless this guy planned to kill him before the fight, that is first degree. If it happened during a fight with out fore thought it would be manslaughter.

It would be up to the prosecutor to prove first degree. Defense of course would fight that and get it thrown out.
It's possible that Kansas and Oklahoma law disagree on that point. Intent can be formed in an instant and the only proof you need is action to carry out that intent to kill. Strangulation is treated as an intentional act to kill in most cases which is why we even have a special category for assault & battery by strangulation crimes carrying a much more serious sentence than just simple a&b.

We had a case recently which I think really helps illustrate things. A few years back, a couple of kids attempted to rob a local pharmacy. The pharmacist behind the counter had been robbed before and was ready. He pulled a gun from behind the counter and shot one of the kids in the head. The other kid fled the scene. The pharmacist pursued him and attempted to shoot him as he fled.

The pharmacist came back into the store and retrieved another gun from behind the counter. He stated he saw the injured robber move and shot that kid an additional five times.

The case went to trial, and legally, even if the jury would have taken the pharmacist's words at face value that the robber was stirring and could have had a weapon (reasonable), the first shot was self defense and the last four were murder in the first degree. That, in Oklahoma at least is how quickly intent can be formed.
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Old 02-12-2017, 03:49 PM
Tom Earp Tom Earp is offline
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Kevin, that is true in this case, not the one we are discussing about PDT. Apples and oranges.

Still in the case you are citing, you would be correct. He had to be in fear of his lie or well being. That is not the case we are talking about here!
There in lies the difference!

Intent still has to be proved for Murder one!
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  #11  
Old 02-12-2017, 06:44 PM
navane navane is offline
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Sounds like pretty clear Murder in the 1st Degree to me. Intent can be formed in an instant.

Interesting. I always thought that murder in the 1st had to [generally] have some kind of premeditation to it. I know that premeditation can still happen fairly quickly. Intent can be formed in an instant; but, intent is a different concept. Like I said, I have to deal with the fighting as it happens in front of me; so, my concept of intent is probably different than yours. I agree, though, that the report of one kid choking the other is troublesome.
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Old 02-13-2017, 01:49 PM
Tom Earp Tom Earp is offline
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naven so true, but Greeks are held to a higher standard but are only a microcosim of everyday life.

Kevin there was an incident similar to the one you mentioned when I was a COP. Liquor store owner chased some robbers out. Had shot one and robber fell in the parking lot. He followed and shot him until his gun was empty and went in and got another and then kept shooting.
His defense, "I kept shooting cause he kept moving". He was cleared, believe it or not!
The reason the suspect ket moving was everytime he got shot, he plead self defense and in fear of his life. I would have jailed him for first degree myself.

But he had the sympathy as had been held up many times. I know because i busted one of them!
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Old 02-13-2017, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navane View Post
Interesting. I always thought that murder in the 1st had to [generally] have some kind of premeditation to it. I know that premeditation can still happen fairly quickly. Intent can be formed in an instant; but, intent is a different concept. Like I said, I have to deal with the fighting as it happens in front of me; so, my concept of intent is probably different than yours. I agree, though, that the report of one kid choking the other is troublesome.
Depends on the state. There is at least one (NY, maybe? I don't recall) that only charges Murder One for murder of a police officer or public servant.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:06 AM
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They damned well better charge him. Had this happened anywhere other than a college campus, it would have already been done.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:09 PM
KDCat KDCat is offline
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In most states there are levels to homicide charges -- manslaughter is reserved for an accidental killing. Murder is usually roughly divided between premediated murder (planned out in advance) (aka Murder 1) and not premediated but intentional killing (aka Murder 2). I worked as a prosecutor for a bit. Charging this guy with Murder 2 would be easy. I would have zero fear about making my case at a preliminary hearing and in front of a jury. Choking the guy out is not an accident. It's not a fist fight gone bad.

He could also be charged a second way. Many states also recognize a crime called felony murder. If you kill someone in the commission of a felony, it's chargeable as murder. In this case, the guy was committing a felony (battery) and killed someone. Absolutely chargeable as murder.

Respectfully, cops don't dictate how a defendant is charged. It's the prosecuting attorney's call. Cops don't have enough training in the law to make that call.
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