NPC Quota, Release Figures and Quota Additions (Updated 8/7/2007)

[itb]

It's this characterization that just baffles most reasonable people. It's 'bitter' if your opinion is to let weaker organizations that cannot adapt or change or improve go silent or let stronger ones retain legacies and strength.

[gee_ess]

This idea of not offering legacies just seems contradictory on so many levels.

Where is this being discussed? I looked back in this thread and didn't see it. I am not familiar with what you are talking about.

It's this characterization that just baffles most reasonable people. It's 'bitter' if your opinion is to let weaker organizations that cannot adapt or change or improve go silent or let stronger ones retain legacies and strength

I think that the NPC groups feel one of their goals is to support Greek life and help grow and nurture the Greek environment. After all, we are all basically striving for the same thing. So, it is natural that we are not going to "go after" each other and hope for the worst for other groups who may be struggling.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by kddani

You seem quite bitter.

There was another word starting with "bit" I was thinking of, but yeah, bitter works too.

If you think it's beneficial for women to be in a chapter with 300-400 members - and YES this would happen if some chapters offered bids to all the legacies going through - then you have an extremely screwed up view of what sisterhood is supposed to be about.

I personally do not consider the concept of a group with 400 members where the majority of people don't know each other's names or faces to be "strong" where sororities are concerned, but hey, if all you care about is letters on a jersey and a resume, rock out with your cock out.

ETA: I see you have dipped your toe in these waters before. Maybe your daughter's resume/stats just weren't good enough to get her in, or the chapter didn't like her, or SHE didn't like the chapter (and it showed). Suck it up, quit blaming the sorority, and move the eff on - for your daughter's sake.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by itb

This idea of not offering legacies just seems contradictory on so many levels.

If a FOUNDER of any organization could see how membership is done presently, I would think they would be appalled. Why would any organization risk alienating alums by not offering legacies? You not only lose future membership, but also financial support as well.

If an organization is successful (however you measure it, but let's use size, because of 'quotas'), then why should you turn away membership? How did this policy start? Some weaker organization whining about how they are shrinking, and then this policy was instituted to help them out? Was the policy started by a non-greek or someone with a grudge? Why would any organization want to help their competition? After all, every organization is competing for alum financial support and member support...

If House A can attract 200 people, and House X can only get 5, then House X deserves to go silent, unless they fix the problem. If House A decides to NOT offer legacies, and all of a sudden their Alums stop supporting them (causing decline), then they ALSO deserve that as well.

Quite possibly one of the most bitter things I've ever heard.

Anyhow, legacies policies are NOT in place to help/hinder OTHER sororities. So your little thingy about who deserves to "go silent" is pointless.

To be honest, legacy policies are meant to HELP chapters to pledge MORE of them, not fewer.

Also, something that people FAIL to realize is that if certain chapters offered a bid to EVERY LEGACY, there would be NO room for ANYONE ELSE. There would be a chapter full of them. Like it or not, they have to play fair and leave room for others who do not have legacy connections.

Another thing: parents often do NOT realize that a legacy HAS to be a GOOD FIT for the chapter. Alot of times, they don't get that their daughter may have not been a good fit, she may have not been interested, she may have been rude, etc. You just never know.

I get that moms get upset when their kid doesn't get a bid to their legacy chapter, but it is sometimes beneficial for them to see the big picture.

I think that every sorority makes the best effort to accomodate legacies and extend bids to them when possible, but that just doesn't happen every time.

[AlphaXi_Husky]

Originally Posted by 33girl

but hey, if all you care about is letters on a jersey and a resume, rock out with your cock out.

I am seriously LMAO at this.

And nothing new to add, just that I agree w/ 33girl and KSU

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by itb

This idea of not offering legacies just seems contradictory on so many levels.

If a FOUNDER of any organization could see how membership is done presently, I would think they would be appalled. Why would any organization risk alienating alums by not offering legacies? You not only lose future membership, but also financial support as well.

If an organization is successful (however you measure it, but let's use size, because of 'quotas'), then why should you turn away membership? How did this policy start? Some weaker organization whining about how they are shrinking, and then this policy was instituted to help them out? Was the policy started by a non-greek or someone with a grudge? Why would any organization want to help their competition? After all, every organization is competing for alum financial support and member support...

If House A can attract 200 people, and House X can only get 5, then House X deserves to go silent, unless they fix the problem. If House A decides to NOT offer legacies, and all of a sudden their Alums stop supporting them (causing decline), then they ALSO deserve that as well.

Since you seem to be confused on the origin of legacy policies, every NPC has its own legacy policy, Panhellenic just uses release figures to tell each chapter how many women to invite to each round. Many NPCs will guarantee a legacy an invite to the first invitational round when space allows. This is not possible for very competitive chapters on certain campuses who have so many legacies going through (ie more than quota).

I think you're upset at the concept of quota and RFM. Panhellenic does not tell any member organization how to evaluate its legacies. So why would NPCs agree to a quota system? Because every NPC has struggling chapters somewhere. (Or chapters that would be struggling if not for RFM.) The quota system (and RFM) help maximize Greek membership on every campus, which in turn helps the struggling chapters that every NPC has somewhere.

Quite often the only "problem" your hypothetical "House X" might have is that PNMs don't give it a chance because of tent talk by other PNMs, other Greeks, alumnae, etc. This is where RFM steps in and allows these chapters the chance to show PNMs how great their chapters are.

I think back to how recruitment was done at my alma mater in the 1980s (based on stories). There were few cuts after the first round, so many PNMs would drop the "less popular" chapters as soon as they could, but then get cut out of all their other options as recruitment went on. If RFM had been used beginning in the 1980s, my school might still have Pi Beta Phi, Alpha Gamma Delta, Alpha Xi Delta, and Gamma Phi Beta.

If you were an active alum in your NPC, you'd probably be aware of the legacy policies and competitiveness of your sorority at your daughter's campus, and you'd probably still be active in your local alumnae chapter and support the local collegiate chapter with time and/or money. I'm guessing your sorority isn't losing much without your participation. If it were really that important to your daughter to join your sorority, she should have tried her luck at a campus with a less competitive chapter. Or maybe your dear daughter really isn't as great as you think she is.

[Jill1228]

Is the landing pad ready? I hear helicopters hovering...
Just sayin'

[SWTXBelle]

I would like to believe that most alumnae realize that being a member of a NPC group means that what benefits the system ultimately benefits their individual group. Having a variety of groups on each campus helps make sure that the majority of pnms can find a home, whether or not they are legacies. My love for Gamma Phi Beta is not contingent on an individual chapter's choice to extend a bid to my daughter. Were my daughter to pledge elsewhere, I would support her in that chapter but would certainly continue my support of Gamma Phi. I am more than a Gamma Phi - I am a member of the NPC, and firmly believe that there are NO member groups whose letters I would not be proud to see on my daughter.

[Shellfish]

It seems contradictory to me to say that small chapters should not benefit from the help that quotas afford them and also that legacies should have the assistance of automatic membership. Shouldn't they also stand or fall on their own merits?

Also, is it just me that shudders at the use of the phrase "offer legacies" instead of "offer membership to legacies"?

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by Shellfish

Also, is it just me that shudders at the use of the phrase "offer legacies" instead of "offer membership to legacies"?

Well, she doesn't seem to be the brightest when it comes to putting her thoughts down in a way that makes sense.

See here:

Originally Posted by itb

I have a general question about the use of the word legacy in any GLO. It seems to differ from organization to organization.

Is there a Panhellic or IFC mandate or national mandate to not offer membership to legacies?

Emphasis mine, but still. She essentially asked if nationals prohibited legacies. That's why, in the thread I quoted that from, I said I'd be surprised if any organization ever mandated that membership not be offered to legacies.

So, yeah. Bitter bitter, fwap fwap.

[littleowl33]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

My love for Gamma Phi Beta is not contingent on an individual chapter's choice to extend a bid to my daughter. Were my daughter to pledge elsewhere, I would support her in that chapter but would certainly continue by support of Gamma Phi. I am more than a Gamma Phi - I am a member of the NPC, and firmly believe that there are NO member groups whose letters I would not be proud to see on my daughter.

LOVE THIS.

My (biological) sister will be attending my University next year, and if she decides to go through recruitment, I would love to see her become my (Kappa) sister. But if she were to go Alpha Phi, Phi Mu or to one of the non-NPC groups, I would be just as proud to see her wear the letters of a sisterhood she loves.

As to this business about letting the survival of the fittest take over and eliminate "weaker" groups - if that were the case, I probably would never have become a Kappa. When I joined my chapter, it was in serious trouble. While the other 3 groups had 120ish members, Kappa had 40ish. In the last 3 years, with a lot of hard work by the sisters and support from our nationals as well as the Greek Life office, we've doubled in size and are on pretty solid ground. We're continuing to improve and grow. If everyone had just given up on our chapter, and RFM had not been in place, I have no doubt that my chapter would have closed years ago, probably less than 5 or 6 years after it was chartered. That's exactly what happened to the DG chapter on our campus back in the early 90's.

This also fits in with what SWTXBelle said about being an NPC sister as well as the sister of a specific group. I strongly believe we have obligations to help struggling groups or sisters, no matter their letters... especially since every NPC group I know advocates helping those in need, whether or not they're Greek.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

My love for Gamma Phi Beta is not contingent on an individual chapter's choice to extend a bid to my daughter. Were my daughter to pledge elsewhere, I would support her in that chapter but would certainly continue my support of Gamma Phi. I am more than a Gamma Phi - I am a member of the NPC, and firmly believe that there are NO member groups whose letters I would not be proud to see on my daughter.

Originally Posted by littleowl33

I strongly believe we have obligations to help struggling groups or sisters, no matter their letters... especially since every NPC group I know advocates helping those in need, whether or not they're Greek.

And I look at it this way... Even if my chapter was doing great compared to the others on my campus, I would definitely try to help them in hopes that they received more members and didn't die out. Because I know that somewhere, a chapter of my sorority is struggling, and I would want the other NPC chapters on their campus to help them.

It's never good to hear that chapters have closed.

No matter the letters...

[AOE-7]

I'm trying to determine how likely it is that an organization would be allowed to extend bids over quota. Also, since total is say, 45, and a chapter goes into recruitment with 34, if quota is 10, then realistically, they MOST amount of bids they would be allowed to give out, is quota plus 1, right?

My understanding, is that each PNMs name is called alphabetically, with her first choice. If she is on the first bid list, for that chapter, it's a match. If she's on the second bid list for her first choice chapter, she gets put aside, right? And then once all the names are gone through, the names that had been put aside are gone through again, if she has moved up to the first bid list due to a previous PNMs matching with another chapter, then it's a match. If she's still not on the first bid list of the chapter she lists first by the time that chapter reaches quota, then her second choice, if they've not yet made quota themselves, and if she's on their first bid list, will extend her a bid, correct? But if she's not on the first bid list of her second choice at that point, and her second choice has not made quota - will they still extend her a bid, or will her first choice still be allowed to extend her a bid? And even if the PNM suicides, if she was not on their first bid list, they would not be allowed to extend her a bid, would they? Because she didnt maximize her options....(unless she was only invited to their party...and then she maximized her options, so they could give her a bid)?

Help!

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by AOE-7

I'm trying to determine how likely it is that an organization would be allowed to extend bids over quota. Also, since total is say, 45, and a chapter goes into recruitment with 34, if quota is 10, then realistically, they MOST amount of bids they would be allowed to give out, is quota plus 1, right?

Yes and No. You have to be careful here. Quota and Total have nothing to do with each other. Quota is a term that applies ONLY to formal recruitment. It is not set based on Total in any way. A chapter can go over Total during formal recruitment by taking Quota. So in your example, if the chapter is at 34, Total is 45, but Quota is 20, they can still take all 20 of Quota.

When you say "quota plus 1," that depends on the "plus 1." You may take Quota Additions even if you are already over Total. Remember - Quota is formal recruitment only and has nothing to do with Total.

Now. Let's assume in your example that the chapter at 34 took Quota of 10 during formal recruitment. After FR, they are still 1 under Total. So they may COR that last open spot to get to Total of 45. That last spot can be filled by anyone regardless of whether or not she participated in FR. But if your "plus 1" was a Quota Addition obtained during FR bid matching, then the chapter is at Total and done recruiting.

Originally Posted by AOE-7

My understanding, is that each PNMs name is called alphabetically, with her first choice. If she is on the first bid list, for that chapter, it's a match. If she's on the second bid list for her first choice chapter, she gets put aside, right?

Right

Originally Posted by AOE-7

And then once all the names are gone through, the names that had been put aside are gone through again, if she has moved up to the first bid list due to a previous PNMs matching with another chapter, then it's a match. If she's still not on the first bid list of the chapter she lists first by the time that chapter reaches quota, then her second choice, if they've not yet made quota themselves, and if she's on their first bid list, will extend her a bid, correct?

Correct.

Originally Posted by AOE-7

But if she's not on the first bid list of her second choice at that point, and her second choice has not made quota - will they still extend her a bid, or will her first choice still be allowed to extend her a bid?

The names of unmatched PNMs and their preferences will continue to be called until all chapters either make Quota or run out of names on their bid list. So this second choice chapter will either match to Quota before this PNM moves up to their first bid list, or she will match to them. If everyone matches to Quota before the PNM gets placed, she will be available for Quota Additions.

Quota Additions are placed depending on pre-recruitment chapter size, the PNM's preference, where she ranked on each chapter's bid list, etc.

Originally Posted by AOE-7

And even if the PNM suicides, if she was not on their first bid list, they would not be allowed to extend her a bid, would they? Because she didnt maximize her options....(unless she was only invited to their party...and then she maximized her options, so they could give her a bid)?

You are correct. If a PNM has two Preference party invitations yet ranks only one of those chapters on her MRABA, then she will match ONLY if she is on that chapter's first bid list. And of course that first bid list changes throughout the process. So if chapter ABC lists the suiciding PNM as #5 on their B list, but 5 women on their A list match to XYZ chapter, then 1-5 on the B list move up to A. So she will match.

If a PNM has only one Preference party invitation, she can only list that one chapter on her MRABA, so as long as that chapter does what they are supposed to do and lists her on their bid list, she should match.

[AOE-7]

Originally Posted by jwright25

You are correct. If a PNM has two Preference party invitations yet ranks only one of those chapters on her MRABA, then she will match ONLY if she is on that chapter's first bid list. And of course that first bid list changes throughout the process. So if chapter ABC lists the suiciding PNM as #5 on their B list, but 5 women on their A list match to XYZ chapter, then 1-5 on the B list move up to A. So she will match.

If a PNM has only one Preference party invitation, she can only list that one chapter on her MRABA, so as long as that chapter does what they are supposed to do and lists her on their bid list, she should match.

Awesome! Thank you so much!!!!

Now...in the SIP example above - PNM suicided, but she was not on the chapters first bid list and they had already made quota...if that chapter was NOT at or above total at the end of FR....would they be allowed to snap bid, or COB her? Or, since that chapter is still below total, even though they are at Quota, would this be considered a snap bid?

My campus panhellenic is VERY young....we're finally getting our crap together this year.