» GC Stats |
Members: 325,123
Threads: 115,503
Posts: 2,196,041
|
Welcome to our newest member, zsamulpitt5293 |
|
|
10-05-2021, 01:44 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 6,290
|
|
Can Women Fix Fraternities?
https://www.thecut.com/amp/2021/10/y...e-members.html
This went in the opposite direction from where I thought it might go. A different perspective from a different type of fraternity experience.
__________________
I believe in the values of friendship and fidelity to purpose
@~/~~~~
|
10-05-2021, 03:23 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,873
|
|
Quote:
But Engender’s current advocacy only surrounds the gender integration of fraternities. They explain this by claiming that “sex discrimination in fraternities … [encourages] various forms of sexual violence, resulting in much higher rates of sexual assault by fraternity members.” At its heart, Engender’s mission statement asserts the bold claim that the presence of women will change male behavior.
|
LOL.....no. The presence of women often advances male behavior. I work in a male-dominated field (fire service and also law enforcement). I can tell you that, while my "brothers" accept me as their "sister" and will 100% fight along side of me, I am not so naive as to believe that they would never want to have sex with me. I don't mean that to sound arrogant (I don't think that well of myself); but, men's behavior is pretty blatant sometimes.
With that, Engender is really missing the mark with their hypothesis.
Quote:
Last fall, one fraternity did finally allow women to join: SigEp. They disaffiliated from the national organization and rebranded as the Edon Club, inspired by the name of the building that members of the frat rent.
|
No, she didn't join SigEp. She joined a co-ed social group that was formerly SigEp.
Quote:
(Before you ask: Edon members discussed enacting rules against fraternization, but truthfully, it’s impossible to stop college students from having sex with each other, and even members of single-sex organizations do. The norm is that current members shouldn’t become involved with students rushing or pledging the fraternity.)
|
And there it is!
__________________
GFB Z
Gamma Phi Beta
True and Constant
|
10-05-2021, 03:56 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Rockville,MD,USA
Posts: 3,502
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by navane
(prior quote) Before you ask: Edon members discussed enacting rules against fraternization, but truthfully, it’s impossible to stop college students from having sex with each other, and even members of single-sex organizations do. The norm is that current members shouldn’t become involved with students rushing or pledging the fraternity.)
And there it is!
|
Not sure what the "and there it is" means here, but having been a member of a co-ed community service fraternity, I *definitely* dealt with that. I've seen chapters that *do* have those rules, but almost all have a caveat that "If they were involved before, then it is OK".
I've also seen rules against people holding offices with signature authority on the financial accounts from dating (i.e. two of three of the President, Treasurer and the Advisor must sign, so the President and Treasurer can't date)
And the one thing that is pretty openly said here is that single-sex organizations still have to deal with some of this as homosexual relationship must be dealt with.
__________________
Because "undergrads, please abandon your national policies and make something up" will end well --KnightShadow
|
10-05-2021, 07:29 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,873
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by naraht
Not sure what the "and there it is" means here, but having been a member of a co-ed community service fraternity, I *definitely* dealt with that. I've seen chapters that *do* have those rules, but almost all have a caveat that "If they were involved before, then it is OK".
|
The author mentioned that an anti-Greek organization at her campus, Engender, reportedly believes that integrating women into a fraternity will change male behavior. The author liked the idea of a co-ed social group ("fraternity") and joined one. She then reported that the members of her co-ed group are known to have sexual relations with one another. My reaction to that was "and there it is!", meaning, "and here we now have a co-ed group where people ["men and women"] are still having sex with each other." Contrary to Engender's hopes and theories, the idea of bringing the females into a male space didn't cause less opportunities for fooling around in the author's group.
Now, mutual intimacy is not the same as sexual assault. I am aware of that. But it's only a matter of time before that situation comes up (as it would anywhere, fraternity or not). It will be no surprise when one member is romantically interested in another and makes unwanted advances on her/him. I'm not sure if you mean that the situations were awkward; but, you have indicated that you have seen this yourself in your co-ed organization.
I am merely venting about the folly of the idea "put men and women together and men will for sure want to change their behavior!" To clarify, I don't think men are a bunch of mindless turds that can't control themselves. But, let's get real, men are totally wired up differently than women. Aside from the fact that sexual assault is NEVER ok, it's no shame or shocker that men have high sex drives.
__________________
GFB Z
Gamma Phi Beta
True and Constant
Last edited by navane; 10-05-2021 at 08:03 PM.
|
10-06-2021, 06:03 AM
|
Moderator
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hotel Oceanview
Posts: 34,489
|
|
If anything, this article is an argument for sororities to be allowed to have parties and control their own social spaces. It certainly doesn’t come across that coed fraternities are the solution to everything.
Side note: there is a vast difference between being in a coed fraternity like APO that is prohibited from having housing, and being in something like this Edon group where there is a large house that needs filled with members and having to be ok with living with the opposite sex.
__________________
It is all 33girl's fault. ~DrPhil
Last edited by 33girl; 10-06-2021 at 10:04 AM.
|
10-06-2021, 05:03 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Rockville,MD,USA
Posts: 3,502
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl
If anything, this article is an argument for sororities to be allowed to have parties and control their own social spaces. It certainly doesn’t come across that coed fraternities are the solution to everything.
Side note: there is a vast difference between being in a coed fraternity like APO that is prohibited from having housing, and being in something like this Edon group where there is a large house that needs filled with members and having to be ok with living with the opposite sex.
|
I agree with both points. There are a few organizations that are represented by Greek Letters that own housing and accept both genders. I think Alpha Delta Phi society has some chapters with houses.
__________________
Because "undergrads, please abandon your national policies and make something up" will end well --KnightShadow
|
10-07-2021, 09:12 PM
|
Super Moderator
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 18,654
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by navane
The author mentioned that an anti-Greek organization at her campus, Engender, reportedly believes that integrating women into a fraternity will change male behavior. The author liked the idea of a co-ed social group ("fraternity") and joined one. She then reported that the members of her co-ed group are known to have sexual relations with one another.
|
I'd have news for them. Folks in same-sex fraternities and sororities have been having lots of sexual relations within their groups for a very long time. It seems a little naive for her to feel the need to point out that members in co-ed groups are known to have sexual relations with one another. I have nothing further to offer that hasn't already been said.
Otherwise, I couldn't care less what some group of randos wants my organization to do.
__________________
SN -SINCE 1869-
"EXCELLING WITH HONOR"
S N E T T
Mu Tau 5, Central Oklahoma
|
10-07-2021, 10:39 PM
|
|
Super Moderator
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Counting my blessings!
Posts: 30,468
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin
(snip)
Otherwise, I couldn't care less what some group of randos wants my organization to do.
|
This.
As for the kumbaya feeling of a housed coed greek letter organization, I wish them luck. Sooner or later, some people break up.
__________________
~ *~"ADPi"~*~
♥Proud to be a Macon Magnolia ♥
"He who is not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
|
10-15-2021, 06:32 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 4,574
|
|
Phil - you are behind the times. NPC groups discourage members from joining little sister orgs and also from participating in IFC recruitment. These things threaten our single sex rights.
|
10-15-2021, 11:33 AM
|
Moderator
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hotel Oceanview
Posts: 34,489
|
|
I also think part of the reason to get rid of women at rush was that some guys spent the entire time talking to a woman who may or may not have any pull with the brothers. I recall going with my friends who were XYZ little sisters to an ABC fraternity rush party. (Wet obviously)
You have 6 or so weeks of pledgeship to monitor these guys at parties and mixers. If they turn out to be rapey jerks, blackball their butts. If it turns out they’ve waited till initiation to be jerks, terminate their butts. It’s not rocket science.
ETA: women have never asked men to come to their rush parties to see if female rushees display any bad or odd behavior in a male/female setting. At least, not as far as I know.
__________________
It is all 33girl's fault. ~DrPhil
Last edited by 33girl; 10-15-2021 at 01:59 PM.
|
10-15-2021, 03:10 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Oregon
Posts: 176
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl
You have 6 or so weeks of pledgeship to monitor these guys at parties and mixers. If they turn out to be rapey jerks, blackball their butts. If it turns out they’ve waited till initiation to be jerks, terminate their butts. It’s not rocket science.
|
Love the quote above.
With such a wide array of experience, there really is no right or wrong opinion on this topic. I'd only point out that giving out bids, forming and training a cohesive group of associate members (i.e., pledges), and then blackballing (or whatever it is called now) one of them is disruptive and divisive, especially if it is over something as nebulous as giving off "rapey vibes." In my view, relying on post bid evaluations to eliminate potential problems is not very efficient and, in some instances, may be an existential threat to the continuation of the chapter. I have witnessed entire pledge classes depledge because "one of their own" was blackballed. Consequently, it would be better for everyone involved (if possible) to screen out potential problem members before inviting them to join.
|
10-16-2021, 12:49 AM
|
Moderator
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hotel Oceanview
Posts: 34,489
|
|
So it’s ok to not give a guy a bid for something as nebulous as “rapey vibes” even though his resume might be great and the brothers might like him otherwise? But if you have given him a bid and he acts like a jerk at a mixer and alienates a whole sorority you can’t blackball him for fear of the rest of the pledges quitting?
I’m confused.
__________________
It is all 33girl's fault. ~DrPhil
|
10-16-2021, 11:44 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 6,290
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl
So it’s ok to not give a guy a bid for something as nebulous as “rapey vibes” even though his resume might be great and the brothers might like him otherwise? But if you have given him a bid and he acts like a jerk at a mixer and alienates a whole sorority you can’t blackball him for fear of the rest of the pledges quitting?
I’m confused.
|
Me too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilTau
Love the quote above.
With such a wide array of experience, there really is no right or wrong opinion on this topic. I'd only point out that giving out bids, forming and training a cohesive group of associate members (i.e., pledges), and then blackballing (or whatever it is called now) one of them is disruptive and divisive, especially if it is over something as nebulous as giving off "rapey vibes." In my view, relying on post bid evaluations to eliminate potential problems is not very efficient and, in some instances, may be an existential threat to the continuation of the chapter. I have witnessed entire pledge classes depledge because "one of their own" was blackballed. Consequently, it would be better for everyone involved (if possible) to screen out potential problem members before inviting them to join.
|
So you believe a member of your fraternity that may be a threat to women ISN'T a threat to the continuation of the chapter, but getting rid of him IS?
Relying only on the pre-bid/rush period to eliminate bad apples from your chapter can prove to be detrimental. It's the reason why companies fire people. Sometimes, all the resume reading and interviewing in the world doesn't reveal all there is to know about a person. For some individuals, once they've fooled people long enough to receive what they want - a job, a bid, etc. - they completely change and show their true colors. You shouldn't ignore that.
__________________
I believe in the values of friendship and fidelity to purpose
@~/~~~~
|
10-16-2021, 12:06 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Rockville,MD,USA
Posts: 3,502
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASTalumna06
Me too.
So you believe a member of your fraternity that may be a threat to women ISN'T a threat to the continuation of the chapter, but getting rid of him IS?
Relying only on the pre-bid/rush period to eliminate bad apples from your chapter can prove to be detrimental. It's the reason why companies fire people. Sometimes, all the resume reading and interviewing in the world doesn't reveal all there is to know about a person. For some individuals, once they've fooled people long enough to receive what they want - a job, a bid, etc. - they completely change and show their true colors. You shouldn't ignore that.
|
My father is a brother of Zeta Beta Tau, but has more or less walked away. From what he said (and I admit he may not have the entire story), every brother basically has to be voted back to activity every semester. I'm not quite sure how that works.
__________________
Because "undergrads, please abandon your national policies and make something up" will end well --KnightShadow
|
10-15-2021, 03:08 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Oregon
Posts: 176
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titchou
Phil - you are behind the times. NPC groups discourage members from joining little sister orgs and also from participating in IFC recruitment. These things threaten our single sex rights.
|
Not that far behind. I do recall that 8 of the 12 little sisters at my fraternity were not sorority members. They were usually relatives of members, notable junior transfers or just high school friends of members. It was in inexpensive way for women who were popular on campus to participate in the Greek system without incurring the expense of joining a sorority.
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Hybrid Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|