Atheists as members?

[yalenole]

I was not refering to who had the best and most correct beliefs. I was referring to tolerance by all of us for each other. I know there are some groups that have very strong beliefs in one direction or another and everyone would not be confortable in all of the Greek organizations, but I also believe there is a place for all who are interested, somewhere in the Greek system where they would feel comfortable.

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by ADSigMel
I think I can see where Tom is coming from. I don't think it's overly PC to think that all monotheistic religions do worship the same god. I mean, otherwise, it would mean that either there are multiple Gods or that some religion's god doesn't exist.

I'm sure he's not saying that Muslims worship Jesus, but rather that, to the extent that Muslims and Christians both believe "there is no god but God" / "la ilaha il-allah" (the Arabic phrase that means the same thing), the god of Christianity and the god of Islam must be the same one, otherwise either there are multiple gods or one of us is just dead wrong.

Every Muslim that I know claims to worship the same god that I (as a Christian) do, only they don't see the nature of God the same way that a Christian would (as in, Trinitarian). That is not to say that Christianity and Islam are the same religion, or even particularly similar (although I would argue that they are actually more similar than most people think). I just mean to say that if Muslims and Christians both believe that there is only one god, then the god of both religions logically *must* be the same one. At least that's how I see it, and I think that's what Tom is saying, too (correct me if I'm wrong, please, Tom).

Absolutely Correct. Thank You for putting My thoughts in a much better wording.

[Lady of Pearl]

IMHO I don't see how an atheist would feel comfortable in my organization as we are Christian based-we have prayer in just about all of our functions. I did know a Soror who was Muslim who was initiated with me but she soon went inactive for whatever reasons.

[Wolfman]

In a recent issue of our magazine, The Oracle, there was an interview with our Grand Chaplain, who was asked questions that are posed in this thread. His basic response is that our Fraternity needs to be more Christian, and evangelize those brothers who may be unbelievers by precept and example. he doesn't believe there are true atheists.There are brothers of other faiths but a true atheist would be a vey rare thing in our midst. He would be "in the closet"so to speak

An example of this check out the present message on the website: <http://www.oppf.org>.

[Senusret I]

Originally posted by Wolfman
In a recent issue of our magazine, The Oracle, there was an interview with our Grand Chaplain, who was asked questions that are posed in this thread. His basic response is that our Fraternity needs to be more Christian, and evangelize those brothers who may be unbelievers by precept and example. he doesn't believe there are true atheists.There are brothers of other faiths but a true atheist would be a vey rare thing in our midst. He would be "in the closet"so to speak

An example of this check out the present message on the website: <http://www.oppf.org>.

I would feel very uncomfortable if Alpha had a Christian message such as the one on the Omega site. I believe that having Christian values is fine, but I don't want anyone in my fraternity to evangelize to me.

[jubilance1922]

Originally posted by Wolfman
In a recent issue of our magazine, The Oracle, there was an interview with our Grand Chaplain, who was asked questions that are posed in this thread. His basic response is that our Fraternity needs to be more Christian, and evangelize those brothers who may be unbelievers by precept and example. he doesn't believe there are true atheists.There are brothers of other faiths but a true atheist would be a vey rare thing in our midst. He would be "in the closet"so to speak

An example of this check out the present message on the website: <http://www.oppf.org>.

Wow...I'm with Senusret with that one. I would extremely put off if my organization put up a message such as that. What about all the members of Omega Psi Phi who aren't Christian, but may subscribe to another faith? Are they somehow bad members or something?

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by DSTRen13
Every branch of Christianity probably interprets the Trinity in a slightly different (possibly very different) way. Some don't believe in a trinitarian God at all. Most people would still say they are still all Christian. The above is your interpretation, but it's not the only one./end hijack

True and yet not true. I will certainly agree that people and traditions will interpret things differently. But the Councils of Chalcedon and Nicea firmly established Christianity as trinitarian, and that trinitarian doctrine as foundational to Christianity.

I feel pretty confident that the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and the vast majority of Protestants (mainline/oldline and Evangelical) would say that one cannot be Christian without accepting trinitarian belief in some form. Now, one can certainly disagree with them, but since they constitute the overwhelming majority of Christians in the world, I question whether "most people" -- at least most Christians -- would say that someone who doesn;t believe in a trinitarian god at all is a Christian.

We can all describe ouselves however we like, but that doesn't mean that others will agree with our self-descriptions.

[Optimist Prime]

Atheists are welcome. That would disqualify some of our most dedicated brothers. Seriously, it takes more than agreeing with me about religion to be my brother. Being someone's brother is about being someone's brother, not judging them based on religion.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Really?

So, is Allah, God, Budda OR Whom Ever who People Believe in as The Supreme Being Different?

Buddha is not a "Supreme Being," Tom. Traditional Buddhism is nontheistic -- either not believing in the existence of a creator God (maybe not necessarily denying it either) or finding the concept irrelevant.

A Buddha in Buddhism is any person who has reached full enlightenment.

[DSTRen13]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
True and yet not true. I will certainly agree that people and traditions will interpret things differently. But the Councils of Chalcedon and Nicea firmly established Christianity as trinitarian, and that trinitarian doctrine as foundational to Christianity.

I feel pretty confident that the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and the vast majority of Protestants (mainline/oldline and Evangelical) would say that one cannot be Christian without accepting trinitarian belief in some form. Now, one can certainly disagree with them, but since they constitute the overwhelming majority of Christians in the world, I question whether "most people" -- at least most Christians -- would say that someone who doesn;t believe in a trinitarian god at all is a Christian.

This isn't a theology board, so I apologize in advance to everyone for this major hijack, but I was raised in a Christian church where many of the members (including myself) did not accept trinitarian doctrine. (Today, I am Unitarian Universalist, if anyone cares.) For most of my life, I've been surrounded by people who only consider very select Protestant denominations to be "real" Christians - Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and my own church (since we rejected the Protestant label) were not allowed in the club. So I am very sensitive about both of these issues. If someone believes themselves to be Christian by their own standards, what do you really care? I mean, do you really know what Christianity was truly intended to be - does anyone today, for that matter?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Buddha is not a "Supreme Being," Tom. Traditional Buddhism is nontheistic -- either not believing in the existence of a creator God (maybe not necessarily denying it either) or finding the concept irrelevant.

A Buddha in Buddhism is any person who has reached full enlightenment.

Or donated money like Stevan Segal.

-Rudey

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by DSTRen13
This isn't a theology board, so I apologize in advance to everyone for this major hijack,

My apologies as well.

but I was raised in a Christian church where many of the members (including myself) did not accept trinitarian doctrine. (Today, I am Unitarian Universalist, if anyone cares.) For most of my life, I've been surrounded by people who only consider very select Protestant denominations to be "real" Christians - Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and my own church (since we rejected the Protestant label) were not allowed in the club. So I am very sensitive about both of these issues. If someone believes themselves to be Christian by their own standards, what do you really care? I mean, do you really know what Christianity was truly intended to be - does anyone today, for that matter?

Yes, people can disagree on what Christianity was intended to be, or is now. But that was not my point.

My point was that words have meaning -- generally ascribed meaning. Otherwise, they are a useless form of communication. Since at least the Fourth Century (if not earlier), the generally-agreed upon "definition" of what makes one "Christian" has included trinitarian belief.

Many people (and faith traditions) do not share this belief and still call themselves Christian. That's their prerogative, and my point is not that I have a problem with that. My point is only that just because one describes one's self as Christian doesn't mean that the majority of Christians in the world would recognize the person as a Christian.

Some may say that's intolerance or exclusivity. I don't think it is, necessarily at least.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Rudey
Or donated money like Stevan Segal.

LOL.

[Wolfman]

Originally posted by Senusret I
I would feel very uncomfortable if Alpha had a Christian message such as the one on the Omega site. I believe that having Christian values is fine, but I don't want anyone in my fraternity to evangelize to me.

I understand your perspective but one joins a Greek organization as a voluntary decision. It's not the govt. or a civil authority. I have been in situations in which men were pressurred to confess Jesus Christ as Lord. I disagreed with that. I've not seen active persecution of non-Christian brothers but one has to know that Omega Psi Phi does have a strong Christian ethos and tradition, among other things, and you will meet this in the Fraternity. Omega is not for everybody!

[enigma_AKA]

Originally posted by Lady of Pearl
IMHO I don't see how an atheist would feel comfortable in my organization as we are Christian based-we have prayer in just about all of our functions. I did know a Soror who was Muslim who was initiated with me but she soon went inactive for whatever reasons.

Soror,

As Alpha Kappa Alpha is NOT a Christian Organization, members are therefore not required to participate in services/activities that exclude them due to their personal faith/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. Also, while prayer is being given, anyone present can choose to meditate, do their own prayer, leave the room, etc.

To answer the OP: As a non-Christian in an organization dominated by Christians, it is more important to my chapter (two of us are non-Christian) to recognize all faiths, but most importantly maintain those Christian-like ideals of serving all mankind, loving and recognizing another as your own self, abiding by the golden rule, etc. My argument is and always has been as long as someone is doing what they are supposed to do (remembering their obligation to serve all mankind and the universal spirit of love of all), then I would have no problem with that.

It's not as if an athiest can't have all of these attributes; the only issue is whether or not she recognizes Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior (to be a Christian) or praying to Allah as her God, etc, etc. I think people oftentimes confuse not believing with being a bad person/not possessing high moral standards. This is not true. Does she need to pray to MY God, or any God to be a good soror? No. There are some so-called Christians who aren't doing what they are supposed to do and some atheists who are on top of things. How they lead their spiritual life is of no relevance to me. All she needs to do is remember and uphold the purpose of Alpha Kappa Alpha...with a smile!

enigma_AKA