Feminist lies: Crying wolf hurts the cause

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Peaches-n-Cream
Many women are reluctant to identify themselves as feminists because of the negative connotation like you described above.

I think that feminism is about equal opportunities and access to education, jobs, health care, housing, and comparable pay for comparable work; it's not about shaving your legs.

It is also not about lying about rape. Lies just make it more difficult for women who have been violated to be taken seriously.

I agree with you PnC. However, its the implementation of such changes is when you get into that gray area - its in this gray area that women may differ (ie. religious beliefs, etc.). That in itself is the determining reason (at least for me) as to whether or not I would choose to identify myself as one. Not to mention the fact, that becaue of my skin color, this movement had little to null impact on me (as compared to the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s, The Voters Right Act of 1965, etc.).

Again, its all about choices. So again, for those of you that claim identify yourselves as one - GREAT, but do not expect EVERY women to share your same enthusiam (or criticize them).

[33girl]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'd be really sad if I didn't know any feminists. If you do not consider yourself a feminist, would you like to go back to the days when women were considered property of their husbands and were not allowed to vote?

ETA: here is a great definition of feminism.

That is awesome and all the "women" mentioned in the original post should have to memorize it or watch the Porky's trilogy daily.

Feminism - true feminism - is about EQUALITY. It's not about putting down someone else (men, fraternities, etc) to make yourself feel superior.

[HelloKitty22]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
Feminists annoy me.

I'm a feminist. Being a feminist isn't about shaving your legs or man-hating. It is about believing that women are entitled to the same treatment in society as men.
For example, I am a feminist because I believe that:
- I should be paid the same as the guy in the cubicle next to me who does the same job.
- I should have the same access to training, mentoring and promotions on my job.
- I should have the same access to professions, schools and vocations that men do.
- I should have the same political voice in my government and influence over my political representatives as men do.
- I should be treated the same when applying and recieving health insurance, a pension plan or life insurance.
- I shouldn't be forced to endure sexist jokes or remarks about my anatomy from my coworkers or my boss.
- Even though women biologically bear children, both the father and the mother of the child are responsible for it's upringing (and I don't just mean financially)
- When women have children they shouldn't be penalized in their work and they should be given adequate maternity leave.

When an educated woman says to me "Feminists annoy me" or "I'm not a feminist," I really think she is speaking without thinking about what she's saying. Do you really believe that you should stay stuck in an entry level job while all the men around you get promoted just because they're men? Do you think you should go on maternity leave and return to find that they gave your job away? Do you think that a company should be able to fire you because you are pregnant or have children? These are all feminist issues and whether you work or are a stay a home mom or own your own business, it is almost impossible to be a woman today and not be a feminist. You may not identify yourself as such but the truth is you enjoy the freedoms that feminists won for you on a daily basis and you'd be pretty perturbed if they were taken away.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
I agree with you PnC. However, its the implementation of such changes is when you get into that gray area - its in this gray area that women may differ. That in itself is the determining reason (at least for me) as to whether or not I would choose to identify myself as one.

Again, its all about choices.

I agree that it's about choices. I'm not sure what you mean by "the implementation of such changes is when you get into that gray area." If you get a chance, I would like to read more about what you mean.

Originally posted by HelloKitty22
You may not identify yourself as such but the truth is you enjoy the freedoms that feminists won for you on a daily basis and you'd be pretty perturbed if they were taken away.

I completely agree with this statement.

[Little E]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
I agree with you PnC. However, its the implementation of such changes is when you get into that gray area - its in this gray area that women may differ (ie. religious beliefs, etc.). That in itself is the determining reason (at least for me) as to whether or not I would choose to identify myself as one. Not to mention the fact, that becaue of my skin color, this movement had little to null impact on me (as compared to the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s, The Voters Right Act of 1965, etc.).

Again, its all about choices. So again, for those of you that claim identify yourselves as one - GREAT, but do not expect EVERY women to share your same enthusiam (or criticize them).

One item we often forget is that the Civil Rights movement and the women's sufferage movement share a lot of roots together. Many would thank the other movement for the support and assitance in achieving their goals.

Feminists come in all shapes and sizes. I would say I am a feminist because I dedicate my time to AST, an organization based on the culitvation of WOMEN. I would also argue that many of our founders had roots in early feminist beliefs, ie the right to education and free association. While many are not radical feminists, what we take for granted now and would never give up, were once a dream, I totally agree with HelloKitty. I think it is dangerous to forget how we are allowed to be educated, free and independent.

just my 2c

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Little E
One item we often forget is that the Civil Rights movement and the women's sufferage movement share a lot of roots together. Many would thank the other movement for the support and assitance in achieving their goals.

Exactly. I do understand that a lot of women of color have felt left out by mainstream feminism (and in many cases over it's history, HAVE been left out by it), but at the same time, you can't discount it altogether. For example, Honeykiss, the Voter Rights Act wouldn't have affected you at all had feminists not previously fought for and won the right for women to vote. It's all interconnected.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Peaches-n-Cream
I agree that it's about choices. I'm not sure what you mean by "the implementation of such changes is when you get into that gray area." If you get a chance, I would like to read more about what you mean.

For example, when you say " Give women equal access to healthcare, " no one will argue that it's not a good idea. But let's be real...the feminist movement does not stop with general statements like this. There are a host of issues/causes that lie behind a blanket statement such as this - how will this be implemented, who pays, what procedures, etc.? And its here that we as women will differ.

Still using healthcare as an example, not every woman is in favor of the legalization of abortion, which in general, the feminist movement supports giving every woman access to. Because of this, not every woman will want to identify themselves with a group/movement of people that does.

PLEASE NOTE: this is just an example and I have no intention of debating abortions, who has 'em, why, etc. This is just an example.

[Honeykiss1974]

SnS and Little, you both are entitled to your opinions, however, the fact remains that more of my freedom/equality that I'm trying to enjoy today were not due to the feminist movement. Connected maybe, but the feminist movement was not the fuel to the Civil Rights Era, which actually gave me access to equal housing, education. Shoot, things such as equal pay and opportunities still didn't come until after Affirmative Action legislation was passed (which passed only after "women" in general were added).

Not to get into a "my movement was bigger than yours" debate, but I'm just stating that when it came to things such as what was discussed previously, it alone isn't cause for me to identify myself as a feminist.

[blueGBI]

I agree with HelloKitty22 but I also agree with Honeykiss1974. Feminism has done good things for ALL women but as a black woman, mainstream feminism at times patronizes me and my concerns or tries to get me to give up my blackness, one of the most integral parts of me because its a "distraction" to the cause. Also, like Honeykiss1974, there are many elements of mainstream feminism, like supporting the cause of abortion that I refuse to support. I'm thankful to the first feminists like Susan B. Anthony for their work and to the feminists of the '60s-'70s who fought for the right to work, to be paid as much as men for the same job, for CHOICES in our lives. But, today's feminism, I just can't support some of the aims but I'm happy that we now have the choice to choose what to support and what not to support.




Plus, compared with women like Phyllis Schafly, we still need feminism.

[DeltAlum]

This is a good thread, so I am moving it to Chit Chat where more people may have the chance to read it and post.

[KSig RC]

I've said it before on this site, at least a half-dozen times, but there's a marked difference between feminism ideology and the feminist movement, and the 'vocal minority' of radicals that comprises what most people recognize as Feminism . . . and this vocal minority does more to set back the cause of women's rights than it does to help.

I'll posit this thread as Exhibit A - valkyrie should never have to post a definition of 'feminism', for example.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
SnS and Little, you both are entitled to your opinions, however, the fact remains that more of my freedom/equality that I'm trying to enjoy today were not due to the feminist movement. Connected maybe, but the feminist movement was not the fuel to the Civil Rights Era, which actually gave me access to equal housing, education. Shoot, things such as equal pay and opportunities still didn't come until after Affirmative Action legislation was passed (which passed only after "women" in general were added).

Not to get into a "my movement was bigger than yours" debate, but I'm just stating that when it came to things such as what was discussed previously, it alone isn't cause for me to identify myself as a feminist.

Oh -- I wasn't arguing with your choice to identify more with one movement over another. We all have to make choices at one point or another which of our labels (gender, race, religion, etc.) take precedence over the others. Just as I'm going to choose to identify with "feminist" before I identify with "Greek," I don't think there is anything wrong with identifying with your race or religion first if you feel that takes priority in your life. I just wanted to make the point that there is not an American (or Canadian) woman out there who doesn't benefit from the feminist movements on a regular basis. You (general you, not you, Honeykiss ) may not agree with all the tenets of feminism, but you better believe you still benefit from it.

[Little E]

Originally posted by KSig RC
. . . and this vocal minority does more to set back the cause of women's rights than it does to help.

I'm curious, how do you mean?

Honeykiss, I just pointed that because many people do not realize that these movements did work very closely at times. And to ONLY work together would have detracted from BOTH movements. I think the cooperation is glossed over in history and is actually quite interesting.

[33girl]

Originally posted by KSig RC
I've said it before on this site, at least a half-dozen times, but there's a marked difference between feminism ideology and the feminist movement, and the 'vocal minority' of radicals that comprises what most people recognize as Feminism . . . and this vocal minority does more to set back the cause of women's rights than it does to help.

I'll posit this thread as Exhibit A - valkyrie should never have to post a definition of 'feminism', for example.

Dude, even though you have a penis this is an awesome post.

Little E, I think what he means (and what I totally agree with) is that the women who do things like misinterpret statistics to "help" the "feminist" movement, say men should be in a zoo, would say that KSigRC doesn't even have a right to post in this thead because he's male, are the ones who are making women not want to call themselves feminists. If someone never wants to shave in her lifetime fine, but she has no business telling me not to do it. Feminism is about having CHOICES and the radical feminist agenda is just as rigid and choiceless as the 1950's view of femininity.

Originally posted by Lil' Hannah
I know, isn't it just horrible being able to choose your path in life?

So if you're NOT a feminist you are not able to choose your own path in life? That doesn't make any sense. I'm pretty sure I've done a good job choosing my own life, and I'm not a feminist.