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  #46  
Old 12-09-2014, 03:54 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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You might find of interest this semiannual report by Yale of reported sexual misconduct there.

http://provost.yale.edu/sites/defaul...014_Report.pdf
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  #47  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:16 PM
SydneyK SydneyK is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
I think it's a good guide, and some of the things I like are that it say you need to get a "yes," verbal or otherwise, and generally encourages communication.
I think it's a good guide, too. I like how it addresses all Yale affiliates (students and employees). I find it particularly interesting that the University prohibits romantic relationships between faculty members and undergraduates: It is uncommon (at least compared to all the universities where I've worked) to have such a strict policy.

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Originally Posted by 1964Alum View Post
You might find of interest this semiannual report by Yale of reported sexual misconduct there.

http://provost.yale.edu/sites/defaul...014_Report.pdf
Wow. The Descriptive Summaries of Complaints section is interesting.

I really like the way they're going about this. Between the detailed guide and the explanation of how particular cases have been resolved, they're doing themselves a big favor (from an administrative point of view). Fewer gray areas and more transparency are a campus administrator's best friend.
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  #48  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:20 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by SydneyK View Post
Your definition of straw man is different from any definition I'm familiar with. Asking a question in no way commits such a fallacy. To address your question, yes, I would say if a man says no and the woman persists, she raped him.
your question was based on a factual element that was not an issue that was considered in the Swarthmore case, ie. did she or didn't she fight back?


Quote:
I've never said I encourage a lack of agency in college women. I find it absurd and dangerous that you want college men to think it's not rape to have sex with women who have already told them no.
. You haven't said it directly but that is certainly the result. Unless I am misunderstanding you, any time a person initiates sex after they have been told no once, any sex that follows is rape.


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Well, it *is* Greekchat. Most contributors to the forum are affiliated with Greek life somehow.
. And I am. Is it a requirement to disclose my affiliation?

Last edited by honorgal; 12-09-2014 at 04:24 PM.
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  #49  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:29 PM
LAblondeGPhi LAblondeGPhi is offline
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Originally Posted by 1964Alum View Post
I posted Yale's guide as it DOES address some of these murkier, gray areas. It gives much more explicit definitions of the different forms that sexual aggression may take. And it was also found to be in compliance with Title IX guidelines, which many other campuses are wresting with now.

I have no doubt that individuals of good will are making good faith efforts to give clarity to some of these more complex issues. Hopefully, this kind of clarity will also give young men on campuses on college campuses across the country clearer boundaries and definition to what is acceptable and what is not.

This has nothing to do with "feminism" or any other political agenda but rather finding workable solutions in dealing with a most serious problem that affects all students.
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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
I think it's a good guide, and some of the things I like are that it say you need to get a "yes," verbal or otherwise, and generally encourages communication. It also talks about patterns of behavior and the excessive testing or violation of boundaries, which I think is really good, as I think that big violations often come from the same people who make little violations.

What I don't like is that, in the section on Prevention, there's not enough emphasis, well, not being a rapist. I think identifying rapey behavior and bystander intervention are good, but I'd like to see a section on behaviors that are not acceptable.
I haven't read the guidelines, but I just wanted to say that everything you two have posted here sounds such like the right approach to this problem: clearly establishing norms, clearly establishing appropriate behavior, and attempting to address the many cultural patterns and behaviors that can lead to sexual assault in any form.
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  #50  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:34 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Originally Posted by SydneyK View Post
I think it's a good guide, too. I like how it addresses all Yale affiliates (students and employees). I find it particularly interesting that the University prohibits romantic relationships between faculty members and undergraduates: It is uncommon (at least compared to all the universities where I've worked) to have such a strict policy.


Wow. The Descriptive Summaries of Complaints section is interesting.

I really like the way they're going about this. Between the detailed guide and the explanation of how particular cases have been resolved, they're doing themselves a big favor (from an administrative point of view). Fewer gray areas and more transparency are a campus administrator's best friend.
For sure. More clarity for all parties. I would imagine the prohibition of romantic relationships between faculty and students stems from the fact that a faculty member is inherently in a "power" position over a student. Male OR female!

President Sullivan at UVA announced that all GLOs will be reinstated on 9 January, but that this will be contingent upon satisfactory and workable policies to address this most serious matter.

I am satisfied that UVA is now on the right track with its ad hoc committee. Hopefully, what will emerge from this is something that provides clarity and protection for all parties.
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  #51  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:37 PM
SydneyK SydneyK is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
your question was based on a factual element that was not an issue that was considered in the Swarthmore case, ie. did she or didn't she fight back?


. You haven't said it directly but that is certainly the result. Unless I am misunderstanding you, any time a person initiates sex after they have been told no once, any sex that follows is rape.


. And I am. Is it a requirement to disclose my affiliation?
Oh, for Pete's Sake. Of course it's not a requirement to disclose your affiliation. It's just standard practice to introduce yourself, along with your Greek affiliation, on a Greeklife-related message board.

My "question" was never mine to begin with. You're the one who insinuated that a rape has not occurred if the woman didn't fight back. Forget the whole fighting back thing and go back to the question I originally asked you. The Swathmore woman told the guy no and he had sex with her anyway. I asked you, if that's not rape, then what is it?

I'll be honest, your attitude about this is both disgusting and alarming. Especially for someone with college age children. If, heaven forbid, something were to happen to your daughter, I bet you'd stop putting quotation marks around "victim."
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  #52  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:43 PM
SydneyK SydneyK is offline
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Originally Posted by 1964Alum View Post
For sure. More clarity for all parties. I would imagine the prohibition of romantic relationships between faculty and students stems from the fact that a faculty member is inherently in a "power" position over a student. Male OR female!
To be fair, they only prohibit relationships between faculty and undergraduates. And I can understand why a school would want to have this guideline in place, I just haven't seen it. In fact, I know many couples who wouldn't be together if the school(s) involved had such a guideline in place.
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  #53  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:46 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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OR either of her sons! Young college men need to understand how and under what circumstances they make themselves vulnerable to accusations.
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  #54  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:49 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SydneyK View Post
To be fair, they only prohibit relationships between faculty and undergraduates. And I can understand why a school would want to have this guideline in place, I just haven't seen it. In fact, I know many couples who wouldn't be together if the school(s) involved had such a guideline in place.
Yes. Yale College refers to its undergrads.
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  #55  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:59 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SydneyK View Post
Oh, for Pete's Sake. Of course it's not a requirement to disclose your affiliation. It's just standard practice to introduce yourself, along with your Greek affiliation, on a Greeklife-related message board.

My "question" was never mine to begin with. You're the one who insinuated that a rape has not occurred if the woman didn't fight back. Forget the whole fighting back thing and go back to the question I originally asked you. The Swathmore woman told the guy no and he had sex with her anyway. I asked you, if that's not rape, then what is it?
Yours is a very truncated version of the facts in the Swarthmore case.
He initiated sex and she "basically" said no. So he stopped his physical advances. He then initiated sex again and she said she "just kinda laid there and didn't do anything. I had already said no. And I was tired..."



Quote:
I'll be honest, your attitude about this is both disgusting and alarming. Especially for someone with college age children. If, heaven forbid, something were to happen to your daughter, I bet you'd stop putting quotation marks around "victim."
I find your attitude alarming too. Do you have a daughter? Would you tell her to just lay there passively because it's up to her partner not to do something she doesn't want?
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  #56  
Old 12-09-2014, 05:16 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
Do you have a daughter?


Ah yes, now we are at the "do you have a daughter...would you tell her...." segment of the discussion.

Guess what? Being able to empathize and relate to this topic does not require having a daughter or having children at all. It requires understanding the historical and contemporary singificance of sexual violence. It requires awareness of the many women and men who were and are "silent victims" during and after the incidents.

I understand the apprehension that people have with definitions of rape and varying experiences that can make it more difficult to consider some instances rape. I understand that. I also understand that people blur the lines which can cause assumptions and resulting confusions among women and men. I understand that.

What I don't understand is the apparent inability to grasp a larger message even if you disagree with the details of a particular incident. THAT I cannot understand other than it being a defense mechanism resulting from a need to maintain the "silent consent" and "blame feminism" approaches.
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  #57  
Old 12-09-2014, 05:28 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post


Ah yes, now we are at the "do you have a daughter...would you tell her...." segment of the discussion.

Guess what? Being able to empathize and relate to this topic does not require having a daughter or having children at all. It requires understanding the historical and contemporary singificance of sexual violence. It requires awareness of the many women and men who were and are "silent victims" during and after the incidents.

I understand the apprehension that people have with definitions of rape and varying experiences that can make it more difficult to consider some instances rape. I understand that. I also understand that people blur the lines which can cause assumptions and resulting confusions among women and men. I understand that.

What I don't understand is the apparent inability to grasp a larger message even if you disagree with the details of a particular incident. THAT I cannot understand other than it being a defense mechanism resulting from a need to maintain the "silent consent" and "blame feminism" approaches.
I am not the one that brought daughters into the discussion, nor did I ever intimate that only someone having daughters can relate and empathize to this subject.

I fully grasp the larger message. I don't see that endless discussion of it, rather than the messy ambiguities, is going to prevent future rapes.

The "teach men not to rape" meme displays a misunderstanding (willfully so, for many) of the nature of rape and rapists.

Last edited by honorgal; 12-09-2014 at 05:31 PM.
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  #58  
Old 12-09-2014, 05:44 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
I am not the one that brought daughters into the discussion, nor did I ever intimate that only someone having daughters can relate and empathize to this subject.
You intimated that no one teaches women to be silent resisters and, even if people don't teach women to be silent resisters, that means that the behavior cannot still be learned. You also intimated that this is about people just laying there silently because it is up to the other person to stop. That isn't necessarily the rationale behind this.

There are many, many, many people who believe and therefore teach women to give in whenever sex is requested of them and to either lay there silently or participate just to get it over with in a less injurous and less time consuming manner. For the women who were not taught this, they can still learn the behavior through interactions with sexual partners who insist on "sliding it in" regardless of the circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
I fully grasp the larger message.
Then stop pretending that silence means consent just because honorgal gives silent consent.


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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
The "teach men not to rape" meme displays a misunderstanding (willfully so, for many) of the nature of rape and rapists.
We've pretty much established that the people involved in this GC discussion don't believe the onus is 100% on men to "not rape". There are power dynamics and gender dynamics that cause perplexities, misunderstandings, and horrible socialization for both women and men.

So, move on to what is really being addressed.

/redundant thread just like the UVA thread

Last edited by DrPhil; 12-09-2014 at 05:52 PM.
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  #59  
Old 12-09-2014, 06:06 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
You intimated that no one teaches women to be silent resisters and, even if people don't teach women to be silent resisters, that means that the behavior cannot still be learned. You also intimated that this is about people just laying there silently because it is up to the other person to stop. That isn't necessarily the rationale behind this.

There are many, many, many people who believe and therefore teach women to give in whenever sex is requested of them and to either lay there silently or participate just to get it over with in a less injurous and less time consuming manner. For the women who were not taught this, they can still learn the behavior through interactions with sexual partners who insist on "sliding it in" regardless of the circumstances.
This is not the message that the vast majority of students matriculating to college have gotten. In fact, just the opposite, starting with curriculum in kindergarden. It's only when they get to college that women are being told they are all victims, or potential victims.


Quote:
We've pretty much established that the people involved in this GC discussion don't believe the onus is 100% on men to "not rape".
I think we've established the opposite. At least some people have strenuously said they don't think women have even the onus to object (verbally or non verbally) to a second pass. Especially not if they are tired. So what "onus" do you think is (or should be) on women, and could you be specific, please.
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  #60  
Old 12-09-2014, 06:17 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Will repost the link to the Slate article, if anyone who missed it is interested. It sums up (but not quickly, it's long and informative) how I see both the big picture and the more detailed one.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...html#section-6

This part is particularly representative of what I've tried to convey, (my lack of writing skills and others' intentional misreading of what I've written, not withstanding):


Quote:
Carol Tavris is a social psychologist and author of the feminist classic, The Mismeasure of Woman, and, with Elliot Aronson, Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me). She says she is troubled by the blurring of distinctions between rape (notably by predatory males), unwanted sex (where one party agrees to sex not out of desire but to please or placate the partner), and the kind of consensual sex where both parties are so drunk they can barely remember what happened—and one of them later regrets it. She says, “Calling all of these kinds of sexual encounters ‘rape’ or ‘sexual assault’ doesn’t teach young women how to learn what they want sexually, let alone how to communicate what they want, or don’t want. It doesn’t teach them to take responsibility for their decisions, for their reluctance to speak up. Sexual communication is really hard—you don’t learn how to do it in a few weekends.”

Tavris also believes holding only men responsible for their sexual behavior has pernicious effects on women because it supports a victim identity that is already too prevalent in our society. “It’s so much easier to be a victim than to admit culpability, admit your own involvement, admit that you made a mistake,” she says. “It’s much easier to say it’s all his fault. Look, sometimes it is all his fault. That’s called rape. But ambiguities and unexpected decisions are part of many encounters, especially sexual ones.
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