Pledge worried about small fraternity

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Dnall reminds me of Greek Life advisors/representatives who prefer certain GLOs and certain types of Greek Life. As a result, they are partial to certain GLOs and certain types of Greek Life. I remember the days of partial Greek Life offices. It was difficult for the GLOs that didn't have what the Greek Life offices considered the winning formula (regardless of the GLOs' local and national policies and procedures).

I had to tangle with a Greek Life advisor at a school where they allow above ground pledging for their cultural orgs. This individual was consistently incredulous about our policies, because we do things differently from other multicultural sororities, mostly surrounding risk management, image, etc.

In one case, this person went as far as to imply that we were lying when we said we don't surface our aspirants while they're on line, opting instead to have a neophyte presentation (which we call an Emergence).

Given my past experience with Greek Life advisor who believe only in the NPC/NIC models, it was bizarre.

[LatinaAlumna]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I had to tangle with a Greek Life advisor at a school where they allow above ground pledging for their cultural orgs. This individual was consistently incredulous about our policies, because we do things differently from other multicultural sororities, mostly surrounding risk management, image, etc.

In one case, this person went as far as to imply that we were lying when we said we don't surface our aspirants while they're on line, opting instead to have a neophyte presentation (which we call an Emergence).

Wow! I would feel like I was in the Twilight Zone if I ran across this advisor. When I was working on new chapter expansion, most were only familiar with NPC sororities and seemed afraid to ask about how we brought in new members. One actually told me, "Just don't do any physical hazing, okay?" Then again, this was in the late 1990s/early 2000, lol.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by dnall

Yeah, you're going to be broke, which will very seriously limit what you can do, as well as your ability to grow in competition with other chapters (assuming they're actually 50-60). That's not necessarily deadly, but it is a significant challenge to overcome.

How do you figure? I know of chapters that have no house, dues of just a couple hundred dollars a semester, and they do just fine... because the campus culture doesn't require HUGE events that cost tons of money. You have no idea what this poster's situation is. Don't make blanket statements when you've been provided with virtually no details.

Originally Posted by dnall

There is a difference between financial difficulty and buying power.

Quick math lesson, X dollars times 20 guys is less than X dollars times 20+anything, especially X+50 which is where he said the other fraternities are.

At any location, dues rates are not just set randomly, they are normally within a range of what the market will bear. In other words, if you raise dues another $100/yr it would lose you more members than the increased income would replace.

As a social fraternity you need Y number (normally 14-20/yr) and Z quality (locally defined) of events to show your members their monies worth in social events. That costs X money. Your competitors for recruitment & social market share have presumably 200% more than you. That doesn't mean you fail, it means you have to be twice as good as them to stay competitive.

If they pay you 1000/yr dues, and 400 of it goes to social, you need to make that 400 seem like it was worth 1000 to the guy. If you don't do that, then you will have trouble retaining guys &/or collecting dues. That's not particularly hard to do, but it takes hard work and creativity. If you are a small chapter versus a couple other larger chapters, then you won't be able to out compete them financially in social events. You can only lean harder on the hard work/creativity and take fun classy guys.

Fraternity dues and how they get a chapter what they want/need is not an exact calculation in the way you describe.

Also, at my school, the largest chapter on campus was the one that lost their house, participated in events with other chapters the least, and didn't show up to Greek week at all in my last year of school. The reasons for that, I'm not really sure. But the smaller chapters never had a problem. Hell, my chapter was the smallest of the sororities, we paid about $150 in dues a semester, and the only time that we really "struggled" financially was when trying to collect money to send sisters to convention. But we got it done.

Originally Posted by dnall

For an NIC fraternity at any school that is 14-20 events a year, and those have a definable cost. It will be variable from place to place, depending on the rule structure between your school and nationals as locally enforced, and what things cost in that area based on what's available.

What the F^%& are you talking about? Where are these numbers coming from? Just because you say it's true, doesn't make it so.

20-anything is always going to be a struggle for resources. That chapter would be best served to get their numbers up closer to 40. There's a lot more synergy in that range to capitalize on.

How do you know this?! Because of your super-scientific calculations?

Stop posting. Seriously. How many people have to say it before it sinks in?

Fewer than 30 members DOES NOT equal a chapter that can't afford to survive. CUT IT OUT. You've tried saying this all over GC, and NO ONE agrees with you... because there are numerous examples that prove you wrong.


Brotherhood is what matters. The rest is gravy.

[dnall]

The OP explained his situation. He's coming from an NIC org, not NPHC or multicultural. His chapter is at 23 +12 pledges, but in moderate hazing so not going to finish 12. Their peer chapters (2 of them) are in the 50-60 range. And, he's concerned with the pitfalls of being in a very small chapter.

14 events is a couple less than one event of some kind every other week while school is in session. I didn't give an amount for what the cost would be because I don't know the rules, factors, or costs on the ground where he is. All I said is there's a definable cost for that, and it will be hard to reach with fewer members than more.

Whoever tried to give that math lesson a minute ago, thanks so much. I've never seen a 100man chapter charge 500/yr, and not many schools with small chapters will you find charging high dues. It tends to be the inverse of what you need. The smallest chapters on campus tend to charge less in order to hold members and attract recruits. I said tends! I know there's exceptions to the rules, but that TENDS to be the case.

Look, I don't know what happened with this chapter. I don't know if they were better in the past, went through a membership review recently, and now the remaining core is super committed. I sounds like they did a good job in rush if they had a guy not recognizing their relative size versus the others. It sounds like they have potential, but right now they're going to be short on funds. They really need to get numbers up so there's a little more latitude in the budget. Otherwise they'll always be cutting corners, which is more risky.

There's nothing wrong with big chapters or small chapters. You can have a good greek experience anywhere. Small chapters will always struggle. That's facts of life. You only have so much money and manpower to get anything done and that will always define you unless you can grow a lot. Really big chapters have a lot of money, but you're not going to be as tight with 100 people as you are with 40 and there will be a lot less leadership opportunities to go around. There's pros and cons on either extreme, and the middle has some pros and some cons from both extremes. Every place has to find its balance. If the other chapters on your campus are 50-60 guys and yours is 23, then you're not reaching your potential and you probably have some internal stuff to deal with.

[knight_shadow]

LOL

You're so full of shit.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by dnall

This post is too long.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by dnall

The OP explained his situation. He's coming from an NIC org, not NPHC or multicultural. His chapter is at 23 +12 pledges, but in moderate hazing so not going to finish 12. Their peer chapters (2 of them) are in the 50-60 range. And, he's concerned with the pitfalls of being in a very small chapter.

14 events is a couple less than one event of some kind every other week while school is in session. I didn't give an amount for what the cost would be because I don't know the rules, factors, or costs on the ground where he is. All I said is there's a definable cost for that, and it will be hard to reach with fewer members than more.

Whoever tried to give that math lesson a minute ago, thanks so much. I've never seen a 100man chapter charge 500/yr, and not many schools with small chapters will you find charging high dues. It tends to be the inverse of what you need. The smallest chapters on campus tend to charge less in order to hold members and attract recruits. I said tends! I know there's exceptions to the rules, but that TENDS to be the case.

Look, I don't know what happened with this chapter. I don't know if they were better in the past, went through a membership review recently, and now the remaining core is super committed. I sounds like they did a good job in rush if they had a guy not recognizing their relative size versus the others. It sounds like they have potential, but right now they're going to be short on funds. They really need to get numbers up so there's a little more latitude in the budget. Otherwise they'll always be cutting corners, which is more risky.

There's nothing wrong with big chapters or small chapters. You can have a good greek experience anywhere. Small chapters will always struggle. That's facts of life. You only have so much money and manpower to get anything done and that will always define you unless you can grow a lot. Really big chapters have a lot of money, but you're not going to be as tight with 100 people as you are with 40 and there will be a lot less leadership opportunities to go around. There's pros and cons on either extreme, and the middle has some pros and some cons from both extremes. Every place has to find its balance. If the other chapters on your campus are 50-60 guys and yours is 23, then you're not reaching your potential and you probably have some internal stuff to deal with.

NOOOOOOOOO!

You. Are. Wrong.

Please stop.

ETA: if there are exceptions to the rules (which you've made up), then stop telling this kid "You will be broke," and, "You need to grow because chapters with less than 30 members can't compete with the larger chapters," when you don't know if that's actually true.

[Drolefille]

[dnall]

It continues to baffle me how you people can argue about anything.

The guy that makes minimum wage is going to have a harder time paying his bills than the guy that make 100k.

If you charge the same dues and have a lot less guys, then you have a lot less money.

Go pick out a campus, look up the dues rates. They'll be some range that normally isn't far apart. Almost always within 50% from highest to lowest, probably more like 30%. That's based off what the market will bear, and the balance that org has to strike to get and hold a number of members. Look at a dozen different campuses. I'll bet you in almost all cases the smallest quarter of chapters tend to charge average to below average dues.

Look at those same random dozen schools and figure out how many events their NIC orgs host on average a year. Again, I'll be you it's between 12 and 22ish (long as they're not on probation), and could be a lot more in some cases. Do some research on those situations and figure out the cost of doing business & what percentage of gross income is going to social. That percentage will be different for each campus, but will normally be pretty close between groups within a single IFC.

This isn't rocket science. Most of this stuff is about as automatic as breathing. If you want to spend your time arguing that some tenth of a percent exists out there somewhere as an exception to the rule, then I really don't care.

Is it possible we can just accept that no chapter is perfect? That there are in fact inherent pros and cons to certain chapter sizes and situations? Can we maybe focus on things that most likely true, so that just maybe someone can take something useful from it rather than waste their time saying they won't face any challenges.

I swear, you people are weird.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by dnall

It continues to baffle me how you people can argue about anything.

The guy that makes minimum wage is going to have a harder time paying his bills than the guy that make 100k.

If you charge the same dues and have a lot less guys, then you have a lot less money.

Go pick out a campus, look up the dues rates. They'll be some range that normally isn't far apart. Almost always within 50% from highest to lowest, probably more like 30%. That's based off what the market will bear, and the balance that org has to strike to get and hold a number of members. Look at a dozen different campuses. I'll bet you in almost all cases the smallest quarter of chapters tend to charge average to below average dues.

Look at those same random dozen schools and figure out how many events their NIC orgs host on average a year. Again, I'll be you it's between 12 and 22ish (long as they're not on probation), and could be a lot more in some cases. Do some research on those situations and figure out the cost of doing business & what percentage of gross income is going to social. That percentage will be different for each campus, but will normally be pretty close between groups within a single IFC.

This isn't rocket science. Most of this stuff is about as automatic as breathing. If you want to spend your time arguing that some tenth of a percent exists out there somewhere as an exception to the rule, then I really don't care.

Is it possible we can just accept that no chapter is perfect? That there are in fact inherent pros and cons to certain chapter sizes and situations? Can we maybe focus on things that most likely true, so that just maybe someone can take something useful from it rather than waste their time saying they won't face any challenges.

I swear, you people are weird.

Uh.. You were the one who argued that there are exceptions to the rule. In turn, you've made it clear that your oh-so-certain-how-the-OPs-chapter-really-is statements may not be true.

The end.

[excelblue]

Originally Posted by dnall

The guy that makes minimum wage is going to have a harder time paying his bills than the guy that make 100k.

Wrong, again! Suppose a guy makes minimum wage but only has to support himself -- it's difficult, but with some management, he should be able to do fine. Now suppose a guy makes 100k but has a family of 20 to support. That guy is going to have a much more difficult time than the guy on minimum wage.

Sure, the chapter might not be able to pull off some of the larger things, but 20-30 is still large enough to do a small amount of cool events. Partnering up with another fraternity of a similar size is another good option.

To the OP: don't be worried. If you are feeling the bonds, that's all you need. That's what holds a fraternity together, not numbers.

When I "joined" my fraternity, it had 0 actives and 13 pledges. We're at ~30 actives and 3 pledges now. It takes a while to build up to a certain number.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by dnall

Small chapters will always struggle. That's facts of life.

No. Not always. Sometimes. Maybe even often. But not always.

If the other chapters on your campus are 50-60 guys and yours is 23, then you're not reaching your potential and you probably have some internal stuff to deal with.

Or you're placing quality above quantity and deciding that smaller for you is better. Or, as has been suggested already, you're in a fraternity that is

Originally Posted by dekeguy

highly selective and traditionally ha[s] smaller chapters.

Originally Posted by dnall

It continues to baffle me how you people can argue about anything.

And it continues to baffle me how you can keep making such overbroad, generalized and authoritative statements and not expect to be challenged on them.

Can we maybe focus on things that most likely true, so that just maybe someone can take something useful from it rather than waste their time saying they won't face any challenges.

You speak from your experience in saying what is "most likely true." Others are speaking from their experiences in saying that you're making assumptions that are not most likely true and, therefore, are not particularly useful or helpful.

I swear, you people are weird.

Because we're not content to let your opinion be the only opinion?

[33girl]

Let's look at the original post again, shall we?

Originally Posted by Abitworried

Hey guys,

I recently went through rush during the Spring and got a bid from the fraternity that I wanted. However, after accepting my bid I realized that the fraternity has about 23 active members with 12 pledges for Spring. Also, I heard that only one person crossed during Winter.

He doesn't say how many people started pledging, how many people the other groups had, or WTF a winter rush is. (I'm guessing they are on quarters or trimesters.) I guess this is where the comment about "moderate hazing so they're not going to finish 12" comes from. That's a super silly assumption to make if you don't know how many pledges there were to begin with.

Originally Posted by Abitworried

Rushing for other fraternities throughout the week I thought most chapters hovered around the 50-60 range and this gotten me a little worried about the growth of the chapter I'm in.

In other words...he has never seen a chapter roster, didn't straight up ask how many people were active in the chapter...hell, for all we know, these other fraternities could have had 30 members and 30 alumni in the room. We don't know that 23 members is that far away from the other groups.

In other words, don't.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Let's look at the original post again, shall we?

He doesn't say how many people started pledging, how many people the other groups had, or WTF a winter rush is. (I'm guessing they are on quarters or trimesters.) I guess this is where the comment about "moderate hazing so they're not going to finish 12" comes from. That's a super silly assumption to make if you don't know how many pledges there were to begin with.

He also never actually says that he's talking about an NIC fraternity. While he does talk about "rush" and a "bid" (terms not exclusive to the NIC), he also mentions "crossing."

[33girl]

Lots of NIC and NPC chapters in NJ and I think around NYC have appropriated the word "crossing."