question about pins...?

kddani · #1 07-12-2002, 09:59 AM

Hi everyone, I wanted to get some opinions on this....
I'm considering starting to go to estate sales in my area- lots of "old money" where i live (old money and grad students= interesting mix). I would think that i've died and gone to heaven if i ever find one of my org's pins and was able to rescue it.
However, I had this question for everyone. If i were to find a pin of another org (i recognize most NPC and IFC pins)... i would feel compelled to buy it to make sure it doesn't go to collectors. However, what would I do with it then? I wouldn't feel right about keeping it, of course. I guess first I would contact the national office and see if they'd be willing to give me what i paid for it.... then i'd probably post on here and see if anyone from that org wanted it.... but as a last resort, I guess i'd have to ebay it. As much as I would hate that, at least it would be up for a member of that org to have access to. Would it be possible to put a restriction on the bidding to members of those orgs? I would hate to sell it to a collector.
Any thoughts?

Kevin · #2 07-12-2002, 10:16 AM

I think it's nice that you try to respect the Greek community like that. I think if you sell it for what you paid for it than most of us would be most appreciative.

If you're going to use the GC site as a way to turn a profit on these babies I'd take that up with John and the mods.

PenguinTrax · #3 07-12-2002, 10:16 AM

I think it would be almost impossible to guarantee that a particular GLO pin on eBay would go to a specific member of that GLO. You can do private auctions, where you limit the bidders on the auction to a select group, but how would you go about verifying everyone's claim to membership? Think about how much money and time you'd have to put into that verification - would it really be worth it.

After all, some of the most active pin collectors on eBay ARE Greek themselves. Kind of a catch-22 situation.

Even if a GLO wouldn't pay you for the pin, maybe they would consider it a tax deductible donation to their organization and provide a letter. That way you might be able to write off the purchase price of the pin on your income tax. Check with a CPA to be sure, though, before going forward.

thetakates · #4 07-12-2002, 10:18 AM

Get ahold of their National Headquarters. They will be happy to put it in the safe or whereever they keep things there. But it will save it from being put up on Ebay or something like that. Just a suggestion. I know I would love to see one of my old pins go to National Headquarters if I were to lose control of it.....

kddani · #5 07-12-2002, 10:18 AM

I wouldn't try to make a profit on here... i'd just offer it up for what i paid for it. I'd just be happy for it to be in the right hands. I know that a lot of people on here are always on the lookout for pins, and I would be incredibly happy if someone found a KD pin and did offer it up on here for what they paid for it.

33girl · #6 07-12-2002, 10:59 AM

dani - if you start finding some really good things at estate sales hook me up - I like old stuff much better than new.

If you find pins, offer them to the chapters near here or let the alum Panhel know - just cause that would save shipping charges. I'm not saying to NOT send it to national HQ, but if someone in a chapter can buy it and pass it on to a sister/brother that might not have the money for the new badge, I think that would be great.

kddani · #7 07-12-2002, 11:02 AM

33girl- yeah, i figure some of the wealthier people in shadyside might have some decent stuff.
That's a very good idea about offering it locally!
If i find anything good, i'll let you know! I always love treasure hunting.

nauadpi · #8 07-12-2002, 11:02 AM

If it got to the point of putting it on ebay, you can put a restricition on bidding that you have to authorize bidders. In other words they have to contact you before being able to bid on an item. Thought maybe that would help, but nationals would be a better place to go first.

ohdollypop · #9 07-13-2002, 12:31 AM

Do you think that any HQs would be willing to pay you for the pin, or even reimburse you? In most cases, aren't the pins considered to be the property of the national organization, not the member who wears/wore the pin? I know for many sororities, when a member passes away, the family members are technically supposed to return the pin to HQ. I would think they would expect you to simply return the pin to them, without compensation.

But, I could be wrong!

nauadpi · #10 07-13-2002, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ohdollypop
Do you think that any HQs would be willing to pay you for the pin, or even reimburse you? In most cases, aren't the pins considered to be the property of the national organization, not the member who wears/wore the pin? I know for many sororities, when a member passes away, the family members are technically supposed to return the pin to HQ. I would think they would expect you to simply return the pin to them, without compensation.

But, I could be wrong!

This is generally true, but I know atleast in my sorority many of the international officiers try to buy any and all pins they can find to keep them out of other people's hands. So by contacting the headquarters, there is still a large chance of being compensated.

TNAndy · #11 07-17-2002, 09:29 PM

Why is everyone so averse to badge collecting?

I am the authorized agent for buying badges off eBay for my fraternity's museum, and I just don't have a problem with collectors saving pins from the scrap gold dealers. We don't have the infinite funds necessary to pay fair market value for every standard badge when a brother passes on. While it is nice to dream that the badges "belong" to the fraternity, that ain't the way the world works. Nobody else has that kind of money either and they never will, because fraternites would rather invest in scholarships for members than in little bits of gold. People are more important than things. We concentrate on the particularly old or unique badges and private sources have provided the budget to cover them.

Unfortunately, through ignorance or carelessness, literally hundreds of thousands of badges have been melted down over the years. Why should these relics be lost forever? Think about all the artwork and history we Greeks lost when the price of gold was $800 an ounce. Unless there is some reason for the scrap gold dealers to list the pins on eBay or whereever, simple economics dictates the badges are going into the melting pot. Pin collectors provide that reason. If it weren't for them, there would be no market incentive for anyone to ever list them on eBay in the first place. (Hey, if you don't like living in a capitalistic society, move to Cuba!)

Besides, my fraternity has lasted much longer than any human lifespan and I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that yours has, too. What do you think the pin collectors are going to do with their pins when they kick the bucket--melt them down? Nope. For the most part, they're going to a fraternity or sorority museum where they can be enjoyed by even more people.

None of the pin collectors I have met wear pins they are not authorized to wear nor do they attempt to pass themselves off as anything they are not. Quite the opposite. Of the ones I have met, all but one is a member of one GLO or another but every single one of them cherishes and respects their pins as though they did know all the secrets behind them.

I certainly hope you don't think of pin collectors as evil and I sincerely apologize if my opinion offends any of you. But try to be a little more patient. Your fraternity will get those badges soon enough. It's the ones being melted down that I agonize over!

TNAndy · #12 07-19-2002, 01:48 PM

Actually, with several notable exceptions, pins on eBay sell for about what it costs to make them new. The last time I checked, a new, standard, 10K badge from my fraternity costs $45 plus shipping. The average eBay price over the past few months for our standard badges has been about the same. Interestingly, our sweetheart pins--which are not badges at all, even though they look like they are--sell for lots more because they tend to have pearls or gemstones in the perimeter.

OK, maybe you'd rather have YOUR pin melted down

than in the hands of a collector, but what if we were discussing one of your founder's pins? Would you rather have it destroyed than preserved and cherished by someone who just happens to have joined another group? Once it's gone, the best you can hope for is a reproduction, even if you used the same gold. But that badge your founder actually pinned to his chest is gone forever. What if we're only talking about a century-old badge? In those days many brothers found their own jewelers to manufacture their pins and the results were some stunningly beautiful, unique badges. By following your argument to its logical conclusion, you'd rather have them melted down than in the hands of a collector, too. (Continuing to follow it to absurdity, how do you feel about burning books?

) Case in point: There are seven more founder's badges from my fraternity out there somewhere. Unfortunately, after this many years of hunting--and believe me, I know brothers who have been searching our founders' descendents exhaustively--we have to accept the notion that they are likely distributed through a number of wedding rings by now. What a waste. If one were in the hands of a collector, at least we'd have a good chance of getting it back someday. Upon sufficient application of funds or (horrors!) another fraternity badge to trade for it, maybe sooner than later.

Furthermore, you may feel this way about your badge as we discuss this now, but unless you continue as an "active" alumnus, I bet you won't even be able to find your badge on your 40th birthday. I'd love for you to prove me wrong, but I am one of only five advisors for my chapter out of well over 300 living alumni. Most chapters on our campus have only one or two; a couple have none. Lots of brothers show up for football games or formal, but far more don't than do. We don't even have a current address for about 50 of them. If your chapter isn't like this and is at least 30 years old, I applaud your due diligence and hard work. Statistically, however, fraternity life after college is pretty thin. I wish it weren't, but on the far side of that sheepskin is the real world and I'm not talking about MTV. It is quite difficult to keep alumni interested once they get married and have kids. Those pins migrate to the back of the jewelry drawer and the offspring have no idea what they are. That's why dad's badge gets listed on eBay as "Sorority Pin". When I was "active", I remember very clearly one brother bemoaning our lack of alumni support and his claims he would always be there to help out. I haven't even seen him or any money from him in years, despite the fact that I have personally telephoned to invite him to participate.

I didn't mean to meander off the topic this far. But if people would put a tenth of the effort they expend whining about collectors into actually finding, contacting, and rerushing their alumni, the fraternity museums would be hard pressed to pay the insurance on all the gold.

Now go read the fable about the dog in the manger.

TNAndy · #13 07-19-2002, 05:24 PM

I absolutely agree with you on one point. Founders' badges along with any other unique or even non-standard badges ought to be returned to the organization forthwith. For that matter, I would return the pin first and simply hope to be compensated for my costs afterward. But I'm not going to ask some collector to return a pin that is identical to the thousands of pins minted last year unless it belongs to a living member.

For example, I returned a brother's badge to him about a year and a half ago. His ex-wife stole it during the divorce and sold it to an antique dealer. A badge collector found it and offered to sell it to me (directly--no eBay). I accepted the offer and mailed the pin to the brother. He was kind enough to cost me out, but I never actually asked him to pay me for the pin. (I would really have enjoyed being a fly on the wall the very next time he talked to his ex after that, tho. He said he'd asked about the badge during the divorce and she claimed she didn't have it. Can you say "busted"?)

My point is, if it had not been for the collector, my brother's pin would now be a wedding ring, a necklace, or whatever. The antique dealer was in Oregon. I've only been to Oregon once while I was in high school when antiques were real close to the bottom of my agenda. Without the collector, I'd have never seen the pin and, chances are, neither would my brother.

Collectors are necessary because if members were doing an efficient job of garnering badges for our respective museums, there would be nothing left for them to collect. If you knew how many hours I have spent combing through antique malls finding almost nothing of value, you'd have some idea how enormous a task I've undertaken and what a boon the collectors are. (Are YOU pounding the pavement, looking for pins?) Frankly, it is far, far cheaper in terms of gasoline to pay eBay prices for them. But again, if the demand weren't there, the supply wouldn't be on eBay, either. In other words, the existence of collectors makes the job of finding pins easier. They deserve to be compensated for their work of finding badges by owning some of them.

Collectors are tolerable for three reasons. First, they create an economic demand for pins which helps prevent them from being immediately melted down. Second, they do sell pins on occasion or plan to donate their pins upon their demise, thus the museums will tend to get them sooner or later. Third, our General Fraternity Historian says our museum hasn't got the budget to even pay scrap gold value for standard pins anyway, so the collectors might as well have them for the time being. I daresay the brass at your sorority's HQ are far more involved in preventing risk management incidents and making sure rush is successful this fall than they are concerned about who has what pinned to a display case in their basement.

When pins do come back to our museum they get pinned into a black, velvet-lined display case, which coincidentally, is exactly what the pin collectors do. I haven't quite figured out where's the harm in that.

I realize I'm shouting into a hurricane, here. I doubt anything I say will sway you to my point of view. I guess I've just mellowed somewhat over the past few years and have come to the comforting conclusion that the world doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyable. My blood pressure is much lower now that I have accepted the reality of badge collectors and the overwhelming impossiblity of preventing their access to pins. I'd rather have badges come to the museum later than never so I will be coexisting peacefully if not cooperating with them. Of course, you're perfectly welcome to join me in screaming at the wind.

But I'm not so ancient that I don't expect to be around when you turn 40. I do find it amusing that I estimated it would be a while and you seem to have confirmed this. I just hope you take a pill and relax or you're going to blow a gasket before you get there.

Tom Earp · #14 07-19-2002, 11:18 PM

While I know several Badge collectors, some on this site, I have respect for a couple and not so for another!

They love beautiful opjects and what is more beautiful than a Greek Badge! Two of them collect them for different reasons and I have talked with both of them and have a deep respect for each!

Both are Greeks and one wants to have a full set of Greek Orgs to present to his Chapter! One collects for the love of it!
He has offered the Badges to the Orgs that ask him about them at the rate he paid for them!

I bougth many LXA Badges to keep them in teh Family myself.

Some do for the love some do for the money, the thing is ti find out which is which!

i have tried to tell Orgs that there is a Badge on site!

Well I dont know if I really said anything or not so there!

11 hrs day do that to me!

theta sig agd · #15 07-20-2002, 04:13 AM

Dear Kddani,

I am probably going to repeat what others have suggested but this is what I would do if I were you:

I would also feel compelled to buy the badge not of my org. First, I think I would try to contact any of the local chapters to see if they wanted to buy it for the price I bought it at.

Second, I would try the local alum. Third, I would try the HQ of the org. I know most HQ's dont buy back badges but I think a few set aside a part of the budget for badge recovery.

Third, I would offer it here for non profit. Assuming John has no problem with it.

I would NEVER sell something on ebay though!!!! You can never be sure who it is who is buying them, there are liars everywhere!!

Just my thoughts!

Good luck,

Oh and if you do see any Alpha Gam badges let me know!