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  #16  
Old 08-24-2020, 08:00 AM
andthen andthen is offline
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Originally Posted by PersistentDST View Post
There are things that began in Black cultures and were adapted by other cultures, only to be used without any understanding of the histories behind it, and a prime example is the word “woke” that has been used on GC. There is nothing wrong with appreciating other cultures, but just like tik tok dances, badly researched articles, cornrows, hip hop and other music forms, many aspects of fashion, slang, NPHC Greek life and numerous other examples, it’s frustrating to see people use things without acknowledging, learning or even caring about the actual people who created it. Color blindness means not acknowledging some of the most important aspects of who I am and my history.
I used bold text for emphasis, Thank you!!! I am not African American but, forums like this allow me to learn more about the culture and even experiences I haven't been privy to both good and bad.

I think your point about appreciating other cultures is spot on, that's great if you want to appreciate an aspect of another culture, but I think its important to do some homework too. I'll use myself as an example, I've been to both east and west Africa about 4 times some was for work other trips were with my church, and it was such an incredible and humbling experience for many reasons. While on a break day I generally love to go to outdoor markets when I travel just to get some things to take home to remember. Generally, I'm not drawn to clothing per se when I travel but African textiles were a game changer, they were just beautiful, I took time to ask the shop keepers the meaning behind the patterns and their significance and some were quite deep. So for me and especially when I wear my ankara dresses I got in Ghana, I wear them with affection and with respect to the people who took the time and care to craft them. I'm under no illusion that I am African or African American, but I wear them with appreciation and if someone asks I explain where I got the item and that the patterns tell a story to me its important to have some appreciation. Generally too it opens up another dialogue to discuss my trips to Africa.

Over the last couple of months, I used to say I didn't see color of others, but realized has you say it means not acknowledging someone and who they are and their history.

Also I've learned a lot about NPHC groups through this forum and the great insight provided by those who are members of NPHC groups. So I'm grateful for that, even though I have some friends and co-workers who are members of different NPHC groups and I've asked a few very general questions when they brought up their membership, I am always a bit careful since I don't want to ask something that might be a no-go area for someone who isn't a member.

In general based on other interactions I've had with friends and those who I thought were friends on FB and previously IRL, for some like myself its ok to not agree with everyone, but for others it just seems like sitting behind a computer screen people feel like they have the right to get in the last word to make their point across.

I've chosen to go through life loving others as best as I can (granted far from perfect) but to also try and keep an open ear to listen to what others have to say and to share their experience.
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  #17  
Old 08-24-2020, 10:29 AM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by lake View Post
The horse is out of the gate regarding the word "woke" used in ways you disagree with. Regardless of its origins, it’s becoming a term used by many people.

The OP mentioned the word is used in songs, plays, and works of art - and emphasized black art. Although it wasn’t explicitly stated, I got the impression the subject of “cultural appropriation” was being approached or implied. I also got the impression that maybe I (and other non-black people) were being subtly told we can’t use the word because of the color of our skin or our heritage.

Cultures and language evolve over time and influence one another. Cultures have been borrowing from one another (and their languages) since the beginning of all of us. It would be arrogant for any group to claim “appropriation” because groups can’t exert ownership over words, things or trends. To claim cultural appropriation is to claim your group is above the mixing and influence happening when cultures meet. And that is insulting to those outside of your culture.

Someone using a word from the African American tradition and them not being African American is allowed in a free society. Perhaps it is becoming somewhat of a slur, but again, once it’s out there no one can possibly control how it’s used. I bristle at disparaging terms used to describe me and others like me just because we have different (not better or worse) beliefs.

If there are white people in organizations calling themselves “woke”, they CAN (even if you don’t think they should). Even if it grates my ears as much as it does yours (and it does). Being uncomfortable and annoyed sometimes is the price people pay to live in a free society. And unrestricted speech is allowed in a free society. And I am willing to die on this hill.

Calling people "woke" or even "fake woke" is probably not what you’re thinking, or what the other person is intending. It probably comes from a sense of annoyance, not racial hatred. Feeling constantly disrespected because we hold different (not necessarily better or worse) values and beliefs. Think micro-aggression.

Some may be offended that I disagree that certain people can’t use certain words because of the color of their skin or their heritage. To me, this says, at best, "I am not open to learning about a point of view which differs from mine because I am holding onto my beliefs at all costs." And at worst, honestly? I am hearing you say "RACIST".

As the OP said, most of you reading this will not care. Some of you will be offended that I told you how I receive the words that you say. It is what it is. At least I've said it.
There are enough dog whistles in your post to let me know exactly who you are and what you believe, and believe me: I am not offended that I know you're racist.
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  #18  
Old 08-24-2020, 11:28 AM
navane navane is offline
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Originally Posted by PersistentDST View Post
You absolutely have a right to feel however you want or say whatever you want.

The word “woke” is positive in our culture. It’s about awakening. It’s about learning more about our culture, race, barriers, history and injustices. It’s what drives us to fight for equity and to help others to do the same.

In quite a few posts, “woke” has been used to describe sorority members who seem to want to see the equities and diversity in their organizations, except it’s a negative connotation. Additionally, some of the visual aids provided have shown people who have little to no desire to see equity for people like me in this country. That’s disappointing to me.

I come here because I enjoy learning more about my sister and brother greeks. Many of you have helped me be able to connect with students better and even some of my alumni colleagues. I’ve had some great conversations in the DM’s and compared ideas. It’s a commonality that we share. But it’s disappointing to read comments where “gangs,” are randomly mentioned, had people make comments alluding Black people being a monolithic group or where “wokeness” has been co-opted and used in a negative light. It’s simply not being used correctly and the way it was used was offensive. What’s more disappointing is why I attempt to discuss my feelings, thoughts or experiences from the perspective of a Black woman in conversations of race and diversity, I am often ignored and the conversation is instead centered in non-Black experiences or “I have a Black friend/coworker/neighbor” experiences.

Again, I can’t tell you how to feel or what to say. I can’t tell you what to do with your rituals or how to run your organizations. I try my best to give insight and perspectives in conversations because I know there are very few of us who are here or participating. And no, I don’t speak for all of us, but if I can bring clarity I certainly try.

In regards to a melting pot, it’s fine to find commonalities in people, but not when you ignore differences or histories. There are things that began in Black cultures and were adapted by other cultures, only to be used without any understanding of the histories behind it, and a prime example is the word “woke” that has been used on GC. There is nothing wrong with appreciating other cultures, but just like tik tok dances, badly researched articles, cornrows, hip hop and other music forms, many aspects of fashion, slang, NPHC Greek life and numerous other examples, it’s frustrating to see people use things without acknowledging, learning or even caring about the actual people who created it. Color blindness means not acknowledging some of the most important aspects of who I am and my history.

I don’t know any of you personally and I try my best not to judge, but I’ve certainly seen some comments that don’t always make me feel welcomed on GC.

I really appreciate the time you took to write this post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts in what I perceived as a loving manner.
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  #19  
Old 08-24-2020, 11:32 AM
Pikefest Pikefest is offline
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Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post
There are enough dog whistles in your post to let me know exactly who you are and what you believe, and believe me: I am not offended that I know you're racist.
This is why we can’t have open discussions about race. All dissenting opinions equal racism.
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  #20  
Old 08-24-2020, 11:45 AM
chi-o_cat chi-o_cat is offline
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The issue is that POC come in and tell us honestly and specifically what white people can do to reduce racist terminology/behavior and cultural appropriation (whether intentional or not, such as NPC groups using hand signs), then white people come in and say they’re going to keep doing what they want anyway.

Sen and PersistentDST, I appreciate your insight and I hope there are more of us learning from your posts than you can tell from the replies. There are times when a simple "like" button on GC would be helpful
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  #21  
Old 08-24-2020, 11:52 AM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by chi-o_cat View Post
The issue is that POC come in and tell us honestly and specifically what white people can do to reduce racist terminology/behavior and cultural appropriation (whether intentional or not, such as NPC groups using hand signs), then white people come in and say they’re going to keep doing what they want anyway.

Sen and PersistentDST, I appreciate your insight and I hope there are more of us learning from your posts than you can tell from the replies. There are times when a simple "like" button on GC would be helpful
Bingo...and thank you.
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  #22  
Old 08-24-2020, 12:01 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post
Thanks everybody, and thanks for reading.
This should have been where this was /thread.

It's unfortunate that some folks want to use language which is harmful to others for no good reason at all. If someone says certain language is problematic and offers good reasons, what's the rationale for persisting? The question is not aimed at Sen, just rhetorical. I'm not sure why there are two sides to this issue.
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  #23  
Old 08-24-2020, 12:21 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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OK, here is my take. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Sen, you have made some very good posts over the years and you have also offended GCers for years. When you call people names, such as racist, for stating their opinion--that's offensive. When you have made obscene posts, such as your signature in your Senusret I name--that's offensive to many. When you come into NPC threads and tell us how you think we should run ourselves--and we would never come clomping into the APhiA forum and do such--that's offensive to many.

If we call you on anything, you call us names. It seems like you want to ride roughshod over many of us, insulting us if we disagree. Why did you come back if you only wanted to do that? Have you not heard that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar?

from carnation, who is neither middle-aged nor quite white--

with a quote from "Alice in Wonderland"--"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
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  #24  
Old 08-24-2020, 12:31 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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His last signature was directed at me and it was 16 years ago. If his last post can pass the written exam, it can have a driver's license. IIRC, his conduct has been fine since his return. I understand things can all start running together after a certain point--and I was surprised his last post on that account was 16 years ago when I looked, but I think we can all be over it at this point.
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  #25  
Old 08-24-2020, 12:33 PM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
OK, here is my take. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Yet, here you are.

"Racist" is not a mean name I use because I'm angry.

It's a classification of your actual behavior and how you show up in the world.
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  #26  
Old 08-24-2020, 12:47 PM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
This should have been where this was /thread.

It's unfortunate that some folks want to use language which is harmful to others for no good reason at all. If someone says certain language is problematic and offers good reasons, what's the rationale for persisting? The question is not aimed at Sen, just rhetorical. I'm not sure why there are two sides to this issue.

I don't see why there are two sides, either.

All logical opinions have been shared. The only real disagreement is with me as a person because it appears as though I have never been "checked" for being rude or vulgar. I'm arrogant and uppity, if you will.

And some folks can't stand it. :-)

In reality, there are moderators and super moderators on this site who have had far worse conduct than me--just without profanity. They know who they are and they know what they've done.

I'm not engaging anymore in this thread. Not because I'm "flouncing" because lord knows I hate a flounce LOL. But because, as you said, there is a persistence here. I don't think it comes from a good place, and it says more about them than it does about me.
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  #27  
Old 08-24-2020, 12:50 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post
I don't see why there are two sides, either.

All logical opinions have been shared. The only real disagreement is with me as a person because it appears as though I have never been "checked" for being rude or vulgar. I'm arrogant and uppity, if you will.

And some folks can't stand it. :-)

In reality, there are moderators and super moderators on this site who have had far worse conduct than me--just without profanity. They know who they are and they know what they've done.

I'm not engaging anymore in this thread. Not because I'm "flouncing" because lord knows I hate a flounce LOL. But because, as you said, there is a persistence here. I don't think it comes from a good place, and it says more about them than it does about me.
"thumbs up."
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  #28  
Old 08-24-2020, 03:07 PM
Low D Flat Low D Flat is offline
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Sen and PersistentDST, I appreciate your insight and I hope there are more of us learning from your posts than you can tell from the replies. There are times when a simple "like" button on GC would be helpful
Co-sign!
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