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  #16  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:08 AM
EE-BO EE-BO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawgal View Post
I am afraid this comment really sounded elitist to me - was it meant to? Are you saying that someone without the good old girl network never has a chance at a top sorority on a competitive campus? Or was the qualifier - "as a general rule" - meant to refer not to the understanding of the posters but to the general chances of the pnm?

It seems to me that ignoring pnms without the steeped in tradition background would exclude many young women who could positively enhance and improve the sorority. Just my opinion...
Hi lawgal,

My apologies- I was not meaning to sound elitist at all. My point was that at a very competitive school there are a LOT of PNMs who come into rush having carefully researched and planned their recruitment- often years in advance if their mothers were Greek at competitive schools and know what it takes.

So when someone comes here ill-prepared at the last minute and is talking not only about wanting to rush at a competitive campus, but also about only being interested in a certain group of chapters (or perhaps even just one), they have no idea that the ship has sailed. Maybe they can get all those piles of recs etc. done in the 1-4 weeks prior to rush, but odds are they are still going to be far behind where they would have been with proper planning.

And the fact they come into the process so late and have not done basic planning/research makes their desire to rush and only go to X, Y or Z sorority all the more insulting in a way- even though they may not intend it that way.

The end result is someone who came into the process without giving it proper respect by trusting it and preparing for it, had unrealistic or misguided expectations and then hates and resents it when they don't get what they want.

I hope my posts on this topic will not shame or degrade anyone- but rather challenge future PNMs to get ready earlier and put a little faith in the process and in the chapters.
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  #17  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:43 AM
Zillini Zillini is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawgal View Post
I am afraid this comment really sounded elitist to me - was it meant to? Are you saying that someone without the good old girl network never has a chance at a top sorority on a competitive campus? Or was the qualifier - "as a general rule" - meant to refer not to the understanding of the posters but to the general chances of the pnm?

It seems to me that ignoring pnms without the steeped in tradition background would exclude many young women who could positively enhance and improve the sorority. Just my opinion...
Not elitist, simply realistic. I don't believe she or anyone else would say PNMs are being ignored. But hard decisions do have to be made, especially on a super competitive campus and especially for a chapter that is considered a "top tier". Practically every PNM wants in that chapter and not everyone can be taken.

(Clarification: The following is not directed at Lawgal or her comment. Simply a general statement/opinion.)

It frustrates and at times even angers me when I read PNMs or moms or others continually ask "Why did I/she get cut? 4.0 GPA, great resume, several Recs, had great conversations, ... I thought they loved me/her!!!" I'm sorry but decisions have to be made and it happens. The chapter members aren't purposely trying to be mean. Nor is a member lying if she says she really likes a PNM. They are not being fake when they are excited to see PNMs return to the next round, only to cut her that night.

Who here has ever interviewed for a highly sought after job or even an entry level job at a large corporation where there were 100's if not 1,000's of candidates? You may be qualified, have a sterling resume, glowing letters of recommendations and what you considered a great interview. The company hires someone else and you have no idea why you weren't selected. In your mind you were just as qualified as who they hired.

Is that company elitist for choosing another candidate they felt would fit better in their corporate environment? Someone they thought had just a bit shinier of a resume? Someone whose personal recommendation came from a highly respected employee within the company whom they know and trust? Or any other recruitment equivalent reason. Is the company mean, fake or lied to you when you thought you had a great interview? Of course not. They simply chose another candidate. It's nothing personal. Most people can accept that when it comes to a job, but they can't look at it this objectively when it comes to a competitive sorority Recruitment.
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Last edited by Zillini; 09-09-2008 at 03:53 PM.
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  #18  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:45 AM
lawgal lawgal is offline
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EE-BO

Your clarification really did help and I also appreciate your comments, not only on this thread but also on others. I also co-sign your comments about research and preparation because they apply in life after college as well. I have felt insulted in the legal system when parties have appeared before me and haven't bothered to prepare. Their ultimate unfavorable outcome is often a result of lack of preparation.
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  #19  
Old 09-09-2008, 12:53 PM
aopirose aopirose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EE-BO View Post
It does seem odd on the face of it, but keep in mind too that just being Greek at a competitive school is not enough for many. There was another thread here recently where someone referenced the "top six" sororities at Texas. In point of fact, from a social tier standpoint, there is a "top three" within that top six. Same goes for the fraternities- there is a top five, but also the great triumverate within that top five.

And it does not stop there- the best fraternity men from all chapters might get to be a Texas Cowboy or a Silver Spur. Typically 2 spots per chapter (some chapters anyway- not all are represented) are available each semester.

And then of course there are officerships within fraternities and sororities, plus- at some campuses- IFC roles are important as are Greek-wide philanthropy committee roles like Dance Marathon.

The point is, there is always another door- always another "level" of existence. And too often the importance- or even the existence- of such levels is more in the mind of the individual than in the reality of Greek life at large.

Sororities recruit members who they feel will fit in socially, who will be good housemates and who they feel will love and respect the sorority and the privacy of ritual. Sure some info leaks out, but the fact that accurate ritual details still remain largely private after 100+ years and in this internet age are a testament to the fact that sororities make good decisions when recruiting members.

These ladies know what they are doing. During formal rush, they do not have the time to fully meet and know EVERY PNM- but neither do the PNMs. So the experience of the active members is what gives them the edge in making a better decision.

I think if a PNM comes into preference and REALLY knows that she just wants her top choice, then she should put her money where her mouth is and suicide on her pref card. I have known ladies who did this and mismatched and were okay with it. And of course many do get the bid and all is good.

In terms of taking a bid from a place a person did not want originally- the success of that, in my experience, depends on the person's attitude. Those who have an open mind and appreciate the fact they are the newcomers to a complicated and well-planned process seem to find out things worked out well. Those who just decided any bid was better than none are typically unhappy since they had unrealistic expectations.

At competitive campuses, unrealistic expectations are born of the belief that belonging to a certain sorority can- in and of itself- bring one up socially in the world. Any sorority or fraternity offers a tremendous personal experience for enthusiastic members who embrace these organizations for what they are- a chance to find comraderie at that point in life when we leave home and abandon our comfort zone to go out into the great wide world for the first time.

Those who seek to join "top groups" for more selfish and social-climbing reasons have the wrong idea. And they learn the hard way because they fail to appreciate that sororities populated by socially prominent members are experts at weeding out the pretenders who want to belong for the wrong reasons.

At the end of the day, it is about being part of something larger than yourself and an organization that offers leadership opportunities that go beyond what your average GDI can ever experience.

The active members of a sorority are the stewards of that gift- and they do not grant access to it lightly. And PNMs should not treat it lightly either.

As far as I am concerned, any PNM should be grateful for and pursue any invitation they receive in the later rounds of rush. And if they REALLY don't like how it goes, they should drop that chapter when they pref- even if it means they suicide or drop altogether. Because if they cannot get over not getting what they want, settling for second best means they might be keeping a serious and eager rushee off the list by preffing a place they do not really want to be and bumping a great potential member down the list.
***golf clap***
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  #20  
Old 09-09-2008, 01:22 PM
XIgapeach XIgapeach is offline
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EE-BO, or should I say OB1, very well put.

Zellini absolutely fantastic points on the job interview comparison.

I do believe some folks do lose perspective being blinded by a somewhat shallow view of the greek system rather than taking in the entire experience and being open to various social networks. After all, what a better preparation for "real life". Success and disappointment comes in all facets of life and that is something everyone must face. It's is how you deal with it that is important.
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  #21  
Old 09-09-2008, 03:07 PM
Bamamom13 Bamamom13 is offline
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I think this thread should have a sticky on it!
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  #22  
Old 09-09-2008, 03:26 PM
basket96 basket96 is offline
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I think what frustrates me the most is that PNMs fail to take into account that once they are in, say, their #2 or #3 choice, THEY make a difference and shape the future of that chapter. A new member class can turn a chapter around like that! I don't know why so many fail to see this potential when rushing. A smaller sorority may give a New Member MORE opportunity to hold office and really do something positive.

This is why IMO it is so important to keep an open mind. Membership is truly what you make of it!

(/ok, now I am off of my soap box/)
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  #23  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:10 PM
Elephant Walk Elephant Walk is offline
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Yes, GDI is better than not getting the top choice.
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Overall, though, it's the bigness of the car that counts the most. Because when something bad happens in a really big car accidentally speeding through the middle of a gang of unruly young people who have been taunting you in a drive-in restaurant, for instance it happens very far away way out at the end of your fenders. It's like a civil war in Africa; you know, it doesn't really concern you too much. - P.J. O'Rourke

Last edited by Elephant Walk; 09-09-2008 at 08:37 PM.
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  #24  
Old 09-09-2008, 07:36 PM
XIgapeach XIgapeach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basket96 View Post
I think what frustrates me the most is that PNMs fail to take into account that once they are in, say, their #2 or #3 choice, THEY make a difference and shape the future of that chapter. A new member class can turn a chapter around like that! I don't know why so many fail to see this potential when rushing. A smaller sorority may give a New Member MORE opportunity to hold office and really do something positive.

This is why IMO it is so important to keep an open mind. Membership is truly what you make of it!

(/ok, now I am off of my soap box/)
I'm totally stealing the "golf clap" from aopirose. Awesome! Wish more girls would realize that instead of succumbing to the herd mentality. The power of individual thinking in someways is overshadowed by the need to follow everyone else's thinking, such is life. But that just may not be the right answer for that particular person, and later, whether you decide to drop because you didn't get what you think you wanted, you may find you have denied yourself a great opportunity.
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  #25  
Old 09-09-2008, 09:08 PM
Kitemom Kitemom is offline
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My daughter friend got cut from her top choices last year primarly due to grades. She let people talk her into dropping out of the three that did send her a pref invite. My daughter told her to stay. Needless to say she would be happier now being anyone one of the three instead of nothing. She knows this and is going through rush again and will be Happy in Any group now. She just wants to be apart of the dance.
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  #26  
Old 09-09-2008, 11:18 PM
KSUViolet06 KSUViolet06 is offline
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I always say that (in my experience), I've never heard a girl say in hindsight that she regretted accepting a bid. But I'd be a rich woman if I had a dollar for every girl I've heard say "I wish I wouldn't have dropped out of recruitment" or "I wish I would've taken my bid."
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  #27  
Old 09-10-2008, 03:29 AM
SureSister SureSister is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zillini View Post

Who here has ever interviewed for a highly sought after job or even an entry level job at a large corporation where there were 100's if not 1,000's of candidates? You may be qualified, have a sterling resume, glowing letters of recommendations and what you considered a great interview. The company hires someone else and you have no idea why you weren't selected. In your mind you were just as qualified as who they hired.

Is that company elitist for choosing another candidate they felt would fit better in their corporate environment? Someone they thought had just a bit shinier of a resume? Someone whose personal recommendation came from a highly respected employee within the company whom they know and trust? Or any other recruitment equivalent reason. Is the company mean, fake or lied to you when you thought you had a great interview? Of course not. They simply chose another candidate. It's nothing personal. Most people can accept that when it comes to a job, but they can't look at it this objectively when it comes to a competitive sorority Recruitment.
Excellent analogy, Zillini.

My though has always been this: Sorority recruitment is, in many ways, a snapshot of many other processes that we face in life. When large numbers of people must be whittled into smaller groups, there are processes that are generally followed.

Consider similarities to drafts in the military and in professional athletics. In both cases, people are poised to be unhappy, satisfied, or elated with their individual results. Were young men disappointed when they were selected to go to war (years ago)? Obviously in this case, the winners were those where not selected. And how about drafts in professional sports? Are athletes disappointed when they are not selected for their dream team? For any team? Of course.

Rejection is tough, yet ever present.
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  #28  
Old 09-10-2008, 10:12 AM
gee_ess gee_ess is offline
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EE-BO's post was dead-on! I agree with everything said.

But in response to the OP, I must tell you that in competitive systems, many feel that GDI is better than not getting a top house. Sad, but true - and primarily for the reasons EE-BO stated regarding tradition. In systems where the mom has known for years that the daughter will go through recruitment, built the resume, developed the contacts for recs, etc, those women are well aware of the reputations of those houses. So, in their minds, and ultimately in their daughters' minds, it is one of the top houses or nothing at all. No one entrenched in those systems really believes that they will end up with a lower tier house if they prepare well enough, and see anything less as a failure. It is a real shame.

I do not agree with this line of thinking. Going Greek is what it is all about - a sisterhood, a lifetime of XYZ and all that it brings. This is one of the things I like about GC: the overall message of "go greek" ( not, "go upper tier or go home")supported by lots of stories to back up that premise.
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  #29  
Old 09-10-2008, 11:39 AM
PJS PJS is offline
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Wow. Lots of discussion which has been very enlightening. I want to chime in on the subtheme of competitive selection, but don't have time before work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitemom View Post
My daughter friend got cut from her top choices last year primarly due to grades. She let people talk her into dropping out of the three that did send her a pref invite. My daughter told her to stay. Needless to say she would be happier now being anyone one of the three instead of nothing. She knows this and is going through rush again and will be Happy in Any group now. She just wants to be apart of the dance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gee_ess View Post
But in response to the OP, I must tell you that in competitive systems, many feel that GDI is better than not getting a top house. Sad, but true - and primarily for the reasons EE-BO stated regarding tradition. In systems where the mom has known for years that the daughter will go through recruitment, built the resume, developed the contacts for recs, etc, those women are well aware of the reputations of those houses. So, in their minds, and ultimately in their daughters' minds, it is one of the top houses or nothing at all. No one entrenched in those systems really believes that they will end up with a lower tier house if they prepare well enough, and see anything less as a failure. It is a real shame.
These two posts (and the one by KSUViolet) hit close to what my original question was asking. Kind of in followup, if a girl "fails" at rush and drops out, what is her college experience like? If she has grown up being groomed to be greek, doesn't she feel absolutely lost in the college setting? For that matter, she has also forfeited alumni status/networks/activities for the rest of her life! (Again, this is a discussion about girls that have chosen to drop out with options left.) After reading this thread about the University of Texas:

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...t=32105&page=4

it sounds like all UT houses are selective and few if any would have a "stigma" attached to them, although they all don't have cachet that some desire.

Certainly many--no most--collegians are not greek and have a great college experience with friend and parties and social networks etc. etc. I just wonder how successfully a girl, steeped in the expectation of being greek, transitions into a GDI college experience.
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  #30  
Old 09-10-2008, 12:25 PM
violetpretty violetpretty is offline
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It's all in the attitude of the PNM. If she has completely written off chapters she feels are beneath her, she wouldn't be doing them any favors by joining, and therefore, GDI is better for her than chapters she has written off.

If a PNM is open to what a sorority really is about and is honest with herself, she might find her home in an unexpected place. It's happened before and will happen again.
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