"Jewish" Houses

[Rudey]

Lately I've had to explain to a lot of people the reason why my fraternity has chosen to be a Jewish house, and while searching on Greekchat to see if this topic was discussed, I came across a few posts in the Rush section in the "I am going to be a ____" thread which was locked up by Pnguintrax. I thought it would be most appropriate in the Greek Life section. This was posted by deltajas and a lot of people were able to make remarks on this, and I feel I can provide a different view point:

"Hey there
Although where I am from I have never seen a girl cut from rush due to being jewish, I cannot say it has not happened in other parts of the country. But, my whole point is we all need to throw discrimination out the window. The jewish affiliated sororities were founded over 50 years ago, we all need to move forward into time. I am from up north and I know of other schools in the area that like 90% of all greek life is Jewish. Now do you think it is fair that some girl of x religion not get the greek experience bc she is not jewish, based on principles founded years ago? I just don't think it is just to ever use religion as a factor. If that is the case, then they should switch to x religion only sororities."

The Need for "Jewish" Houses:

Let me tell you the reason why my fraternity, AEPi was founded. AEPi is the only nationally Jewish fraternity. While others like SAMMY and ZBT were Jewish at one point, they no longer are. We were started by the immortal 11 who wanted to create a fraternity without any religious restrictions while espousing Jewish ideals. Currently, our numbers are strong, and while we do have many non-Jewish brothers, we are definitely a house with a Jewish identity. Note: Many other houses may be called a jewish house even if they truly aren't because of the proportion of Jewish members - a nice way to totally neglect the house's ideals and stereotype I suppose.

What many people do not understand is that our founding purpose was to be a Jewish fraternity, not one that simply brings in Jews and tells them to socialize. Judaism to most Jews is not simply about religion. There is a culture and nationality aspect...for some, it's arguably an ethnicity.

Many can claim that we don't need a house based on Judaism. Well we claim we do, and as the members of a fraternity we are the ones who vote on which direction it chooses to go. So far we have been successful and will remain commited to the Jewish path. Just like a black fraternity, we will we will always be able to offer something to our brothers that a non-Jewish house can't. We have an understanding of their background that makes them feel at home. Another important aspect of AEPi is that we want to create the leaders of tomorrow's Jewish community and feel that our experience in a Jewish fraternity providing Jewish activities will gear them up for that. It is because of this that we are partners with Hillel. But I would still like to note that we are a social fraternity. I guess that is what makes us different from many of the minority fraternities.

Furthermore, certain rituals involving Christianity make us feel uncomfortable. Even the fact that events could be held on Friday nights, which would disqualify many Jews, is neglected. This is not to say the rituals are wrong. I believe Carnation was the one who discussed what happened at her convention. Personally I feel if your fraternity/sorority was built on certain ideals then stick with them. I wouldn't ask an organization to change for me and would question why it was that I wanted to join so bad, and if the reasons were really solid, I wouldn't mind the "discomfort". Integration is always great, but assimilation is not.

It also goes beyond discomfort in some cases. We were simply not given bids at many fraternities where being a WASP was the only criteria. I will give one example. Phi Delta Theta, founded in 1848, admitted Jewish men and one of its brothers was Isadore Feibleman, a prominent citizen of Indianapolis. At its 1912 convention it adopted an "Aryan" rule, not in response to any pressure to deny admission to Jews, but because the West Coast chapters were opposed to the pledging of "Orientals". Of course, the same clause made it impossible for the fraternity to pledge Jewish men in the future. In 1948, Mr. Feibelman made an eloquent plea for the removal of the clause and in the course of his remarks named several members of the fraternity who were of the Jewish faith. Eventually the fraternity did remove the clause and is now open to anyone of any faith. AEPi is our safeguard that men of Jewish faith will always have a fraternity that will accept them. Currently, when there are still campuses which practice racist ideals, and in a year which has seen the most anti-semitic acts since decades ago, we are more than ever ready to make sure our fraternity remains Jewish so that Jewish men will always be able to have a greek experience.

Where you err:

We do not deny anyone's admission because of their faith. Please do not judge our decisions if you are not aware of every fact. You are not on the rush comm or in the chapter. You have, simply put, absolutely no idea whether people are rejected on the basis of their religion. Most chapters will always seek out Jewish potential members for several reasons. We know that community. That is where we return to and know students, most likely. Also Jewish students seek us. They want to be in the "Jewish" house. There is nothing wrong with that, just as if someone wanted to be in the engineering house because that is where they feel they get along the most. When we sponsor Jewish events or co-sponsor something with Hillel, of course that will also spread our name within the Jewish student body even more. And it is a ridiculous claim that people look for kids that look Jewish. True, certain people do have that look that a Jewish person can easily identify (I don't have that 6th sense personally) but many of us don't. I have red hair and freckles, along with an Arab name and no discernible accent.

You make the claim that at other schools in your area, 90% of the greek life is Jewish and this prevents non-Jews from enjoying the greek life. If I have ever seen a statement full of holes that I could drive a truck through, it is this one. 1) This is not your campus, so I find your experience not to be the strongest. 2) I will start accepting your nice statistic when you provide me with numbers. In the meantime, please accept the fact that 90% of Uganda is actually Swedish. 3) Two posts above the one I quoted, you state: "I have seen with my own eyes here up north, PLENTY of girls not even get a chance bc they were not jewish. " This is in direct contradiction to your quote above: "I have never seen a girl cut from rush due to being jewish". Perhaps you can clarify or choose a side to approach your argument, because I am confused.

From my own experience of meeting so many AEPi's across the country at conventions, I can say that almost all our chapters have non-Jews. My favorite chapter (Missouri-Rolla) of all hasn't got a single Jew in it but these guys were awesome at convention and were dedicated to Jewish ideals and learned about our values where they wouldn't otherwise. I will proudly call them my brothers. I can't speak for AEPhi, which you mentioned, but I am positive they have many non-Jews as well. Even in NY, I know of 4 non-Jewish AEPhis on 3 SUNY campuses. We will take any Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Bahai/Moonie kid into our chapter that we feel will benefit from us and will benefit our brotherhood, given the fact that he understands why we were founded and feels comfortable supporting that. Perhaps the true hidden problem at your campus is that they're all from NY...now those girls can get on anyone's nerve regardless of religion (the exception is if you're from Brooklyn or Queens because the water is different there). As for the jap comments you made, I figure that if you just don't like that little sub-culture, then you should remember you are not a part of it. People are free to act in a certain manner among themselves. This might seem obnoxious or bother a lot of people, but then again I'm sure that group you judge has a word or two to say about you and your judgements. Oh and you really don't realize just how offensive that word can be until you leave the NY area - specially if someone who isn't Jewish uses it.

-Rudey
--Because Zoolander is the best movie ever!

[RockChalk]

Wow, that was an amazing post.

As long as we're on this subject, was Sigma Delta Tau founded as a Jewish sorority or is it just a fluke that the SDT chapter at my school is mostly Jewish?

[bolingbaker]

Yes, Sigma Delta Tau was founded as Jewish sorority as were several other sororities. The various Jewish national fraternities & sororities were founded to meet the needs of Jewish students, and also to offset the restrictions then in place among the "general" fraternities & sororities. Today, the "general" GLOs have Jewish members, Black members, Hispanic members, but GLOs still exist to accomodate those who want a special emphasis in their social circle. Some Jewish fraternities, like Pi Lambda Phi, became "general". Zeta Beta Tau became "general" and then made the decision to revert back to Jewish emphasis. In the 1970s, one of their former chapters became a chapter of SAE.
Phi Kappa Theta was founded as a Catholic fraternity; Beta Sigma Psi was founded for Lutheran students. Some "social" GLOs emphasize agriculture or other academic disciplines.
There seems to be not a thing wrong with having "general" fraternities & sororities alongside ones that offer special emphasis. The whole, relatively new series of "Multicultural" GLOs offer largely Hispanic emphasis.
What all this means is that Greek life remains hugely popular, and in strong demand despite what all the left wing anti-fraternity types would have you believe.
On most campusses, the Jewish fraternities & sororities are members of IFC and PanHel, as opposed to having their own governing umbrellas like the Black GLOs and Hispanic GLOs. In the end, though, it means that the Greek system is a powerful attraction for college students of all backgrounds.

[ZTAngel]

Originally posted by deltajas
First of all
I NEVER contradicted myself. I said and I quote, in my experiences I have never seen a girl cut bc they were Jewish, but I have seen girls cut bc they were not!
No one is saying not to be proud of your culture, but excuse me for saying no one should be allowed to discriminate. I'm sorry, but I do not think anyone should back up discrimination, whether it be catholic, jewish, black, white or whatever.

So, you claim that the "Jewish" houses cut women because they are not Jewish. But, when you went through rush, you probably knew what houses were prominently Jewish right? Would you have felt comfortable in a house where you would be the minority? Probably not. So, did you cut those Jewish houses based on the fact that they were prominently Jewish? And, wouldn't that be discriminatory on your part?
People want to go where they feel comfortable and accepted. If you are not a minority, than you probably wouldn't even begin to know how it feels to be unaccepted and left-out because of your religious affiliations or the color of your skin. So, you went to a sorority that had members predominantly of your religion. Jewish people feel the same and therefore go to a sorority where they know they will fit in.
As for Jewish houses cutting people solely on the reason that they were a non-Jew, I would love to see statistics to back up these statements and not just an experience of maybe 2 or 3 of your friends. If this were the case, I'd be surprised if these houses hadn't been sued yet for discriminatory practices.

[aephi alum]

- post deleted -

[GreekGuide]

Let me say this is just a comment/observation...not a judgement or opinion.

When I was an undergrad, the head rho chi at the time was a member of my chapter. Several of us were discussing rush experiences and she told us that right after rush she had to counsel a rushee because...

SDT, the traditionally Jewish sorority on campus made no references to religion during rush and this rushee really liked the chapter and really like the women and ended up accepting a bid from the women.

The rushee, who is devote Christian, was really happy until the first week of class when they had their pledging ceremony and the ritual was based on the Jewish faith. The rushee became terribly upset and it was then that she found out that 95% of the women in the chapter are of the Jewish faith. She went to the Greek Life office and talked to people there, her mother got involved and was upset that the sorority did not reveal their religious affiliation....after couseling, the girl stayed on with the house for another month, but eventually dropped out.

In discussing this with my sorority sisters, we came to a consensus, that most people who go through rush already know that this house is Jewish, that one Lutheran, that one Catholic, etc... This knowledge comes from the fact that most students live in-state and the Greek Community is tight. But, if you come from out of state and don't know many people...you may not know that. In an effort to build Greek Unity, your Rho Chi is not going to tell you that SDT is the Jewish house.

Now, SDT is a great group of girls. I got to know many because I used to date a ZBT. But, yes, most are Jewish, most are from out of state. Many went to High School together in North Shore Chicago, Minneapolis, Alabama, Texas. They are a tight knit group. Now, some would say they are a weak house because they are not large in numbers, they don't participate in a lot of Greek Events because of their size, they kind of stick to themselves and the ZBTS/AEPis. But, I think they are strong because they continue to have a solid numbers because as Rudey referred to, they tap into the Jewish Community and heaviliy associate with Hillel - that community is not going to disappear.

I agree...people go where they feel comfortable. But, I have to admit that when I went through rush I cut that house because of the religious affiliation. I think I would have cut other houses if I knew it had strong religious overtones because religion is not why I joined. My sister, who is Jewish was in on the conversation, and she said she cut SDT because she wanted to be in a house that was more diverse and was more active on campus.

So, the question is.....is the rushee wrong for judging the house. She loved the girls and the house when she went through rush, and it was only after she found out many are Jewish that she decided to drop. The answer is probably yes because she is wrong for discounting people based soley on their religion, but she is probably right for leaving something that makes her feel uncomfortable. You want to be around people you can relate to. Growing up Jewish is very different than say growing up Catholic. Or, growing up rich versus poor, black versus white, west coast versus east coast or midwest, etc,etc, etc.....

But, is it Greek Life's responsibility or SDT's or the Rho Chis to communicate things like religious affiliation or other nuances like that chapter has a large percentage of athletes, that chapter stresses academics, that chapter is into volunteerism....Where do you draw the line??? When it seems ok to say during rush, "Oh, our house is really into athletics. We love sports!" BUT, not ok to say, "Our house is mostly comprised of Jewish women."

Again, I agree that people go where they feel comfortable, but if something that would bother you is not revealed during rush what are you to do. And because of PHC rules, she can't accept a bid from another house for one calendar year.

I don't know....it's hard. I'm not sure how it works for fraternities, but with sorority rush, we try to take pain-staking steps not to make anyone uncomfortable by being politically incorrect.

Thoughts anyone?? As a future Greek Life advisor, I'd really like to get your opinions on dealing with this issue. Not just religion, but with ag, engineering, LesBiGay, etc....house labels - it's a tough one.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by aephi alum


So just because I'm an AEPhi, I'm a JAP???

I'm sorry, but this really aggravated me. I understand what deltajas is saying. He/she (sorry) are simply stating that SOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE houses do discriminate. If a girl wants to join a predominately Jewish house without being Jewish, then that's awesome for her. She's open minded. No the above quote, "So just because I'm an AEPhi, I'm a JAP???" No. Deltajas is NOT, and I repeat, NOT saying that. If you reread what he/she wrote, there are girls who actually said that. Don't blame deltajas, blame ur own sisters for saying that. Now, on the whole SDT thing, my cousin goes to College of Staten Island, and is an SDT. She's Catholic. Not just Catholic, but an Italian Catholic, and some may know that Italians are very into their religion. Note: before people start goin off, I'm not sayin that JUST Italians are into their religion, ALL Italians are into their religion, or that no Italians are Jewish. Her boyfriend is a Sammy, and he is also Catholic. What the problem is is stereotyping and closed-minded people. If I hung out with many African-Americans and they asked me to join their sisterhood, sure. If I hung out with a lot of Jewish people, then sure I'd join them too. It is who u feel comfortable with, but I'm sure there is still a lil discrimination goin on with that situation.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by aephi alum
So just because I'm an AEPhi, I'm a JAP???

Well, if you had attended school across the river at BU instead of MIT, you'd have about a 90% chance of fitting that general stereotype . . .

. . . but is that bad? And is it related to being a sorority founded on Jewish principles, by Jewish women? I don't think that either of these are implicitly true. Meanwhile, having met a couple actives from your chapter at MIT, I can say that they didn't fit this stereotype at all . . .

I think this is another example of just how bizarrely different chapters can be from school to school - Rudey, I can completely understand the rationale you provide for your fraternity and its principles - very well-put, intelligent, and complete - and also appreciate the inclusion of the anecdote about the chapter at U. Mizzou-Rolla. However, for the very reasons you provide for desiring AEPi to exist as it does, you must be willing to accept that those who do NOT desire to live their lives according to Jewish idealogy must be respected for that choice, just as they must respect your decisions and beliefs.

While your particular chapter does not descriminate on the basis of faith, others may, and it is narrow-sighted to deny the experience of others while espousing your own, however positive it may be. You should NOT feel that you have to defend AEPi's choice to support and uphold traditionally Jewish values, however - people must accept this as your choice, your belief system, and your set of values.

I think we can all learn a lot from when discussions like this become slightly heated - it exhibits the dangers of stereotyping in general, and stereotyping by culture in specific. The "JAP" stereotype may fit in many cases - but sensitivities on both sides quickly become skewed, and thus it is improper to label this way.

[shadokat]

Isn't part of rush to educate women a little on your sorority? I mean, we are always said to be a Jewish sorority, yet we are really the first NON-SECTARIAN sorority. Yes, the women that founded the Alpha Chapter of Delta Phi Epsilon were Jewish, but they state in their founding words that the sorority exists to:

"promote good fellowship among the women students among the various colleges in the country...to create a secret society composed of these women based upon their good moral character regardless of nationality or creed , ...to have distinct chapters at various colleges..."

If you are a Jewish house, I don't find ANYTHING wrong with that. But if you're looking to recruit only Jewish women, then by all means, let rushees know that ahead of time, and save them from some grief.

Would SDT and A E Phi's national HQs say that they are Jewish houses? Or predominately Jewish houses? I say that b/c I have a friend whose sister pledged there at Pitt, and she wasn't Jewish, but the chapter predominately was.

[aephi alum]

- post deleted -

[KarenC725]

Please be advised that the following is based SOLEY on MY experience rushing at Maryland...

The campus has the aforementioned "Jewish" houses, mixed houses and what some would call "Christian" houses. Prior to going through rush, many girls I interacted with thought I was Jewish (sidebar- 13 years of Catholic school and not eating meat on Fridays. Very Catholic). I know from MY EXPERIENCE that many rushees knew the repuations of the houses and many were turned off by the presumption/"truth" that some were only interested in Jewish girls and doing events with Jewish fraternities.

It was also a known "fact" that many of the Jewish girls would wear their Star of David necklace on the first day of rush in hopes that this would keep them in contention for later rounds. Many of the girls in the "Jewish" houses wore theirs during this time as well. Personally, I made it through to the third round with a "Jewish" house and then it came out (I was actually asked) that I wasn't Jewish. At the other houses, it was subtle like "What camp did you go to?".

I liked some of the houses and honestly could not stand two of them because I thought the girls were witches. The problem is that no matter what we say on this board or preach on our campuses, some houses have certain reputations and until bias disappears completely in society, that's not going to change. Bottom line-pledge where you feel comfortable.Your sisters/brothers should want you for who you are, not where you worship on weekends...

[UCFPhiDelt]

This is all my own experience...

I know many of the AEPi's at UCF, UF, and the University of Miami. While we all know the fraternity is predominantly Jewish, it is not limited to only those of the Jewish religion. I know that there are non-Jewish members at all three of those schools. My sister is dating an AEPi at Miami and I recently had a conversation about this with him. Your religion isn't the deciding choice about whether you get a bid; it's about what type of person you are. I know the same is true here at UCF. I am Jewish but I didn't join the house because I wanted more diversity and had friends that were Phi's. I know guys that are Jewish who haven't gotten bids from AEPi at these same schools because of their attitudes. I believe at some schools the chapters may not be like this. I am sure some people are not bid because of the religion. I can only assume that these houses are in the minority and not the majority.

That's my 2 cents.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by Rudey
Perhaps the true hidden problem at your campus is that they're all from NY...now those girls can get on anyone's nerve regardless of religion (the exception is if you're from Brooklyn or Queens because the water is different there). As for the jap comments you made, I figure that if you just don't like that little sub-culture, then you should remember you are not a part of it. People are free to act in a certain manner among themselves. This might seem obnoxious or bother a lot of people, but then again I'm sure that group you judge has a word or two to say about you and your judgements. Oh and you really don't realize just how offensive that word can be until you leave the NY area - specially if someone who isn't Jewish uses it.

-Rudey
--Because Zoolander is the best movie ever!

What is wrong with NY girls? BTW anyone over 18 is not a girl, but a woman.
I thought/hoped that the whole JAP acronym had disappeared completely because of the hostility it contains towards Jewish women. I can say that acronym was frowned upon over a decade ago when I was in college in upstate NY. It is a slur.

Rudey, I agree with most of your post. At my college, I know many women in SDT and AEPhi are Christians. There were also Jewish women in all of the sororities not just SDT and AEPhi, some of whom were Kosher and stayed home on Friday nights in order to observe the Sabbath. The sororities respected that and accomodated them. There were no sorority houses so Kosher kitchens weren't an issue, but they had formals at facilities that were kosher.

[RUgreek]

I'm jewish, pledged a non-jewish house. Nobody had a problem there, I guess you guys live in skinhead land to have such a serious debate on religion. Nobody's house denies anyone based on race, religion, nationality, etc. If they did, who care, go pledge another house, if they want to be stuck up, let them. I'm tired of people whining about being discriminated. I agree with Karen, just go join where the people are cool and stop placing so much emphasis on your beliefs. It's time to diversify yourselves...

[Rudey]

1. RUGreek you wrote: "I'm jewish, pledged a non-jewish house. Nobody had a problem there, I guess you guys live in skinhead land to have such a serious debate on religion. Nobody's house denies anyone based on race, religion, nationality, etc. If they did, who care, go pledge another house, if they want to be stuck up, let them. I'm tired of people whining about being discriminated. I agree with Karen, just go join where the people are cool and stop placing so much emphasis on your beliefs. It's time to diversify yourselves..."

If it's whining to you, then please just don't read the thread as you would simply avoid a house based on a religion. And don't make such empty statements like "It's time to diversify yourselves".

2. KSig you wrote: "you must be willing to accept that those who do NOT desire to live their lives according to Jewish idealogy must be respected for that choice, just as they must respect your decisions and beliefs. "

Please look at my post again. The fourth paragraph in the Need for Jewish houses section, should clarify my standpoint on this. I state that " I believe Carnation was the one who discussed what happened at her convention. Personally I feel if your fraternity/sorority was built on certain ideals then stick with them. I wouldn't ask an organization to change for me and would question why it was that I wanted to join so bad, and if the reasons were really solid, I wouldn't mind the "discomfort". Integration is always great, but assimilation is not. "

Perhaps my words are hazy so I'll try and make it as clear as possible. Everyone in our society has an undeniable right to practice whatever faith they would like. We can understand that a person might join our chapter and be uncomfortable with the fact that there are Jewish rituals. Generally that doesn't happen because we make it very clear what our fraternity is about and those that feel the practices are outside of their own zone of comfort, just simply don't pursue it much more. Obviously Mizzou-Rolla felt they were comfortable. When we do rush, we say "hey we're from AEPi - The JEWISH fraternity" so as to minimize any future misunderstandings. We feel there are many fraternities that either offer rituals based on Christianity or totally disregard religious background of any nature, but only ONE Jewish fraternity. Just like a black, asian, multicultural, latino fraternity is able to effectively support the beliefs of their communities through their events and rituals, so do we. This support also extends into the Pro-Israel arena. 7% of our fraternity nationally went to the largest such rally in DC several months ago with less than a week's notice. It was our strong beliefs that allowed us to pack our bags from chapters all over the country during school and attend. This summer we have two trips to Israel for AEPi's only, funded by our national office, and make up the majority of Birthright travellers going to Israel as well in these scary times to show support - clearly again, this would not happen at any other house.

3. Cream there is nothing wrong with NY women. I was only joking but that is a good topic to bring up in the ChitChat section

4. Shadokat, you could not be more right in your post. "If you are a Jewish house, I don't find ANYTHING wrong with that. But if you're looking to recruit only Jewish women, then by all means, let rushees know that ahead of time, and save them from some grief." Generally, chapters try to at some point throw that in there at the beginning. Jewish houses are a bit difficult to understand though because we want the best of both worlds: a strong voice in the Jewish community as well as the ability to be a part of the general greek community. At many schools, greek councils and panhells do let them know if a chapter is Jewish. At certain schools, I suppose they don't because they are afraid this will turn kids away. I would also expect the rushee to want to do more research on an organization where they would invest so much time and money into and perhaps look at the website or something (take a look at aepi.org and tell me if you can't tell we're Jewish immediately). Even our coat of arms, our Cofa, has the menora with a star of david. However, I should still say that any doubt should be removed asap and agree that you ARE right. Unfortunately, this may not happen at certain schools. I don't know all their reasoning, but perhaps the panhell could discuss it with them and pick a direction to go in.

5. GreekGuide - you asked for an opinion so I think I can give you the best one. As a future advisor, I think it would be best to discuss this at the campus you are going into. Furthermore, since these are all national organizations it is imperative to involve the national office in some way (perhaps talk to the advisor). Personally, I think it might be best to provide some sort of history or a link to national websites on a rush pamphlet.

6. Deltajas. I respect your comment as much as I do not agree with them in the slightest sense. I would appreciate it if you read my first post once more to pick up on certain details to discuss this further. I have reread all your comments several times now and thank you for clarifying my misconception on your remark. I appreciate it. However, once again I will say two things:

A) You capitalize the word "MY". Think about this. How can that be your experience if you are not a part of the sorority making the decision? You're own experience seeing campuses nearby does not qualify you to make expert judgements. You are not involved in the discussion process and have NO idea if some other factor was involved. It is not even on your campus but at nearby NY campuses that you base your opinion on. You state a 90% statistic that is meaningless as my comment on Uganda. Please understand I mean no disrespect. I and Cream, are both from NY and both testified to the fact that we know non-Jews in Jewish houses also.
B) You seem to have been able to define discrimination in a certain biased manner. If you read my section on the need for "Jewish" houses, and can come up with points to argue, then please do. But sometimes, you seem to talk like a small town politician that throws comments out without addressing specific points. Discrimination is bad as you say, but please address the points put out for you. Sometimes it's difficult to make your point in situations that aren't face to face, but I feel we can come to better understand each other in time if you agree on that. I will say once more that because you are a jewish house, and most of your members are Jewish, does not mean you discriminate. The fact that we're Jewish attracts people to us and also makes us more prone to have interactions with Jewish people moreso than any others. Most chapters, if not all, will take non-Jewish members if they espouse Jewish ideals. That is not discrimination. But again, I put a lot of time into my comments so try to streamline your argument along those points.

Also, let's just drop the JAP remarks. It makes people uncomfortable and there is no need to do that if we all respect each other.

And in regards to you being Jewish, I have just a bit to say on that. I will not tell you if you are or you aren't based on the fact that your father was as you said in an earlier post. According to reform Jews, you most surely would be. However, I do ask you to consider what it is that makes you Jewish. Do you ever go to services? Are you involved in the Jewish community? I was only bothered by you adding this in because it seems that once you throw that in there, you are qualified to make remarks on the religion as an expert. I am not judging your experiences at all though so please understand.

You hope that this topic can be closed, and I don't feel the need for that. There is no need for saying anything that makes people feel bad, and as long as we don't stray from the topic, then there is no reason to close the thread.

If any of you are actually truly interested on more details on Jewish houses being founded (such as ZBT meaning Tsion Bamishpa Tapodah: Zion shall be redeemed in justice), let me know. I also have another fact: "the first fraternity founded for the purpose of bringing students of like religious persuasion seems to have bee Phi Kappa, established at Brown in 1889. Whether this came about because of the exclusion of Catholic students from existing fraternities or whether it was an effort to maintain the religious faith of its members, the fact remains that it was the first fraternity founded specifically to serve the needs of a religious community. After merging with Theta Kappa, they were called Phi Kappa Theta and admit non-Catholics, although the original nature of the society seems to have persisted."

-Rudey
--If I get addicted to this site, I will not be happy Mr. Hammel