Most Competitive Greek Systems?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by HDL66

This is Panhellenic party line nonsense. 87% of those receiving bids did NOT get their first choice, they got their first choice of the houses they had left. There is a HUGE difference.

But would it really help if they emphasized "first choice remaining after the last party"? I doubt it. People hear what they want to hear before recruitment starts and only really figure out what was meant as the rounds go on.

Other than not having quota or total so that "top" houses could give more bids than the others, what more could a school like Bama do to match girls? There's nothing that I can think of really.

Sure, they could release even more statistical information so that girls might be able to weigh their chances before recruitment started, but I think it would prejudice PNMs more strongly about the groups in question.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by HDL66

This is Panhellenic party line nonsense. 87% of those receiving bids did NOT get their first choice, they got their first choice of the houses who wanted them. There is a HUGE difference.

Fixed.

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by HDL66

This is Panhellenic party line nonsense. 87% of those receiving bids did NOT get their first choice, they got their first choice of the houses they had left. There is a HUGE difference.

PNMs who are not happy with the choices they have left are free to withdraw. The real question is do you want to be Greek or do you want to be an XYZ? Besides, just because you want something doesn't me you're entitled to get it.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Zillini

PNMs who are not happy with the choices they have left are free to withdraw. The real question is do you want to be Greek or do you want to be an XYZ? Besides, just because you want something doesn't me your entitled to get it.

excellent point.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by HDL66

This is Panhellenic party line nonsense. 87% of those receiving bids did NOT get their first choice, they got their first choice of the houses they had left. There is a HUGE difference.

Would you like to be in a house full of girls who didn't want you to be their sister? If your answer is yes, what on earth are you joining a sorority for?

[HDL66]

I'm not sure why some people got their hackles up by my calling out Panhellenic's BS. Nowhere does Zillini's original statement:

Originally Posted by Zillini

Out of all the women who participated in Bama's Recruitment this year 83% received bids and of those 87% got their first choice.

indicate that those 87% got anything other than their overall first choice from recruitment. My complaint is that that is exactly the insinuation that Panhellenic likes to make. "Spin" as O'Reilly would say.

Thank you SWTXBelle for taking my comment at its face value.

It's clear people didn't particularly like my comment, but no one took issue with its actual merit. Here are the responses.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

But would it really help if they emphasized "first choice remaining after the last party"? I doubt it. People hear what they want to hear before recruitment starts and only really figure out what was meant as the rounds go on.

I don't know if it would help, but I don't think assuming people won't comprehend the truth justifies bending it.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Other than not having quota or total so that "top" houses could give more bids than the others, what more could a school like Bama do to match girls? There's nothing that I can think of really.

I never said I had a better idea for the member selection process, but that's not what we were talking about.

Originally Posted by Zillini

PNMs who are not happy with the choices they have left are free to withdraw. The real question is do you want to be Greek or do you want to be an XYZ? Besides, just because you want something doesn't me your entitled to get it.

OK, you switched from telling us that 87% of your pledging PNMs got their first choice, to telling me that "just because you want something doesn't mean you are entitled to get it." How does that defend your original statement? I never said girls were ENTITLED to their first pick. I just said that a whole lot more than 13% don't get it!!

Originally Posted by 33girl

Would you like to be in a house full of girls who didn't want you to be their sister? If your answer is yes, what on earth are you joining a sorority for?

????? Um, no. And just because a girl gets cut doesn't necessarily mean the house didn't want them for a sister. How many threads have been devoted to heavy RFM cuts early on without getting to know girls etc.

Originally Posted by HDL66

This is Panhellenic party line nonsense. 87% of those receiving bids did NOT get their first choice, they got their first choice of the houses they had left. There is a HUGE difference.

I will stand by my statement. I really didn't mean for it to be inflammatory, but instead to correct misinformation. Truth be told, I agree with most of your responses. It's just that they don't relate to the 87% assertion.

I initially responded mostly because I have been unhappy with my own school's Panhellenic for years for broadcasing the very same statements to our PNMs. It just rubs me the wrong way.

[Titchou]

In order for total clarity, HDL66, your statement isn't correct either. I say this because you don't know what percentage of the 87% really did get their first choice from Day 1. In order to have the clarity you seem determined to have, the information would have to be given in terms of how many women on each day of recruitment were invited to their first choice at that point in recruitment vis-a-vis their first choice before recruitment ever began if they had one. In other words:

1) Some women who have a pre-recruitment preference for a particular chapter will get that choice.

2) Some women who have no predetermined preference will get their first choice - once they determine what that chapter is.

3) Some women will not get their first choice at any point during recruitment.

[AOII Angel]

So in a perfect NPC should we just divide up the PNMs and put them in the three top houses and have mega houses so no one has to join the lower tier houses? Yeah. That will keep everyone happy for about two seconds. 87% getting their first choice is actually an accurate measure of a successful system. The part I'd like to see expounded on is the 12% drop out rate. I would like to see how many chapters the PNMs have left when they drop out. If they have 4-5 chapters left when they drop out, that would be telling wouldn't it?!

[ComradesTrue]

I don't think anyone- including HDL- is critizing the system, or dissing on (ahem) "lower tier" groups, or saying that PNMs are entitled to certain chapters. If I am reading HDL correctly, she (he?) is simply stating that providing a stat such as "percentage of PNMs who get their first choice" can be misleading. I personally agree with that statement.

Of course it would be impossible to know, without a survey and 1600 completely honest PNMs, to know what percentage of PNMs received a bid to their first choice when considering all groups on campus and not just those that liked the PNM enough to invite them back to pref. Again, I don't think HDL, or anyone, is proposing such a survey or stat. Instead, if I am reading the post correctly, he/she is simply seeking a clarification of the statement to read that "87% of PNMs received a bid to their first choice out of houses that they preffed" or something to that effect.

As someone who lives outside of the state of Alabama, but who writes recs for PNMs that will be attending that school every year, I have seen first hand the unfortunate misconception that many of these naive 18 year olds have. They literally have the idea that "we get to pick the houses that we like" (aka ranking for RFM, with no concept that the houses TOO are doing some cutting). In addition, I have had several of them attempt to inform me that "almost everyone" gets into the house that they want. These are not those "I think I am better than you" type of PNMs... these are sweet girls who have just not grown up knowing much about Alabama rush, and who only know what they hear at orientation and read on the Greek Life website.

To clarify- I don't think that anything is wrong with the Alabama recruitment system. Nothing. But I have seen my share of sweet, naive-to-the-system 18 year olds completely misunderstand that one statistic. A simple clarification of what that statistic really refers to (pref night "first choice") would go a long way towards giving the PNMs a more realistic picture of the recruitment process.

HDL- If I have misrepresented your intent, my apologies.

ETA- and FWIW I *do* think that 87% of PNMs receiving their first choice after pref is an excellent placement rate. Kuddos to Bama for that.

[HDL66]

Originally Posted by Blondie93

I don't think anyone- including HDL- is critizing the system, or dissing on (ahem) "lower tier" groups, or saying that PNMs are entitled to certain chapters. If I am reading HDL correctly, she (he?) is simply stating that providing a stat such as "percentage of PNMs who get their first choice" can be misleading. I personally agree with that statement.

Of course it would be impossible to know, without a survey and 1600 completely honest PNMs, to know what percentage of PNMs received a bid to their first choice when considering all groups on campus and not just those that liked the PNM enough to invite them back to pref. Again, I don't think HDL, or anyone, is proposing such a survey or stat. Instead, if I am reading the post correctly, he/she is simply seeking a clarification of the statement to read that "87% of PNMs received a bid to their first choice out of houses that they preffed" or something to that effect.

As someone who lives outside of the state of Alabama, but who writes recs for PNMs that will be attending that school every year, I have seen first hand the unfortunate misconception that many of these naive 18 year olds have. They literally have the idea that "we get to pick the houses that we like" (aka ranking for RFM, with no concept that the houses TOO are doing some cutting). In addition, I have had several of them attempt to inform me that "almost everyone" gets into the house that they want. These are not those "I think I am better than you" type of PNMs... these are sweet girls who have just not grown up knowing much about Alabama rush, and who only know what they hear at orientation and read on the Greek Life website.

To clarify- I don't think that anything is wrong with the Alabama recruitment system. Nothing. But I have seen my share of sweet, naive-to-the-system 18 year olds completely misunderstand that one statistic. A simple clarification of what that statistic really refers to (pref night "first choice") would go a long way towards giving the PNMs a more realistic picture of the recruitment process.

HDL- If I have misrepresented your intent, my apologies.

ETA- and FWIW I *do* think that 87% of PNMs receiving their first choice after pref is an excellent placement rate. Kuddos to Bama for that.

This.

She.

Thank you.

[Zillini]

HDL, thanks to Blondie I now understand the point you were trying to make. But as already said, without an in depth survey of PNMs there is no way to determine if the bid they got was from: their favorite from the beginning of Recruitment; a new favorite they discovered once they actually spent time with actives; one of the invitations they had left and had never really considered that Chapter before, yet find they truly like them; or if it was merely the best of or even the only remaining choice they had left.

In addition there is no way to know how many may have been disappointed with their remaining choice(s), yet decided to go ahead and accept a bid. Then they absolutely fell in love with their new sisters. On the other hand, I sometimes wonder how many accept a bid from a "top" Chapter just because it is a "top" and later realize they might have been happier elsewhere.

[UGAalum94]

It had never occurred to me that this statistic was an attempt to "spin" as much as it is a soundbite reflection of one part of the compete statistics that Alabama releases.

I disagree that anyone is deliberately bending the truth on this point. Would does panhellenic gain with this spin?

[FSUZeta]

getting pnms to fill out the "exit poll" on their recruitment experience is like pulling hens teeth-it ain't easy. i have seen these forms handed in with no answers, partial answers, etc. very few take the time to really read the questions and give heartfelt answers. they want to get on with their sorority experience or if they did not join, with their lives.

[HDL66]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

It had never occurred to me that this statistic was an attempt to "spin" as much as it is a soundbite reflection of one part of the compete statistics that Alabama releases.

I disagree that anyone is deliberately bending the truth on this point. Would does panhellenic gain with this spin?

IMHO, two things.

1) More PNMs going through recruitment. You have to have more girls to increase your system. Bigger greek system --> expansion of chapters, expanded programing, more influence on campus, increased budgets, bragging rights, whatever.

There is a solid subset of girls that are raised knowing they will be rushing when they go to college. The competitiveness of the experience will not dissuade them, in fact, some embrace it. They are ready and know the game. There is a significant contingent, however, that aren't from this camp. If they realized that many strong houses will be cutting up to half of the PNMs in the first round or two, and the fact that you have a good GPA and resume may mean nothing if you don't have connections or "the look" or an elusive "something else," and you may come home with severely battered self esteem and a choice that you were less than enthusiastic about, I think some would say, "Who needs that? I'm not going to bother."

I honestly think this is a marketing tactic as much as an inert statistic made available to the public. The "statistic" of heavy cuts during early rounds is never mentioned to PNMs and specifics are not even available to alumni (unless you talk to your own house's recruitment advisor.) Panhellenic markets the greek system well and makes it sound like you are likely to get your "first choice." Don't get mad at these girls for having unrealistic expectations. Panhellenic (and sometimes alums) encourage girls casually interested to "try it out, what do you have to lose?" And then they feel like they had the rug pulled under them, and the response is, "well, what did you expect?" They EXPECTED that 87% of the girls were going to get their top pick, not their top pick of the 2 houses that hadn't cut them.

2) I think it protects the Greek system from bad press in a neutral-to-greek-hating media.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by HDL66

There is a significant contingent, however, that aren't from this camp. If they realized that many strong houses will be cutting up to half of the PNMs in the first round or two, and the fact that you have a good GPA and r e s u m e may mean nothing if you don't have connections or "the look" or an elusive "something else," and you may come home with severely battered self esteem and a choice that you were less than enthusiastic about, I think some would say, "Who needs that? I'm not going to bother."

This is another reason why I dislike first semester (hell - first MINUTE you step on campus) rush. I can't imagine if my first college experience would have been judgement by a gaggle of girls I never met before. Not saying that girls don't suffer rejection in deferred rush, but you usually have made friends on campus, know your way around the school and are on a firm enough footing for it not to completely break you.

Supposedly rushing right away helps prevent "tent talk" but if that's the case, why do we have stronger and weaker chapters at schools that do it?