right/wrong

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by jessiwannabe

Well I prove myself in moral ways, life ways ,and in public ways. The moral ways I try not to disrespect anyone no matter how much they might deserve it. I also prove myself by living above the norm that is set for our race and especially by being a female we have to work twice as hard. We are not supposed to be educated and I think I prove that everyday by going to class and making the best grade in class. I also talk to kids that are in high school because that is where you are most influenced by other people. I mainly talk about the stress that you could be put under by parents because my sister shot herself because she never thought she was good enough. I tell them never under any condition let someone tell you you're not good enough, because I know how that feels cause it hit close to home. I prove myself to be uplifting to others. My greatest joy is to see someone take my words and use them well and I see them later on and they are better off. I have a big heart for community change and willing to be a part of that change and say twenty years form now I've made a difference. Right now I am working on the mayor campaign cold calling and posting signs up to vote for Larry Langford!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahhaha

I think I know what you're trying to say here about stereotypes and cultural issues but you're not expressing yourself well at ALL. How could someone take your words and use them to make themselves better off if this is how you express yourself?

[1908Revelations]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I think I know what you're trying to say here about stereotypes and cultural issues but you're not expressing yourself well at ALL. How could someone take your words and use them to make themselves better off if this is how you express yourself?

I understand what you are sayling Drolefille. Plus the "we are not supposed to be educated" thing she speaks of is just an excuse to me. It is 2007 not 1843, in my opinion 'we' should be educated point blank.

[jessiwannabe]

Yes we should be educated be but that's not what's expected of us. Yes times have changed but not changed that much that everyone in this world is equal. The constitution may ,but some pepole still believe that we should be separated and don't like us. It does me good to see black lawyers inventors and doctors because that's not what the norm expected us to be but your beliefs have to be stronger than the outside world. I think it is good to see black Ceo's there are not many. Do not use it as a excuse use it to make you stronger to say I'm proving the world wrong right now. The world does not care how sensitive you are especially black people we have to help each other to strive for excellence that's where community service comes into play. I let other people know my mistakes and bad experiences so they won't make those same mistakes that's what I mean by taking my words and using them to your advantage sometimes it helps to hear other people's mistakes so you know what not to do.

[nittanyalum]

Oh. My. God. Seriously. Please. Use. A. Punctuation. Key. Correctly. Other. Than. Just. The. Period. Your. Posts. Are. Giving. Me. A. Headache.

[jessiwannabe]

highly noted

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 1908Revelations

I understand what you are sayling Drolefille. Plus the "we are not supposed to be educated" thing she skeaks of is just an excuse to me. It is 2007 not 1843, in my opinion 'we' should be educated point blank.

Yes, I think about four layers underneath her words I can grasp what she's trying to get at.

Originally Posted by jessiwannabe

Yes we should be educated be but that's not what's expected of us. It does me good to see black lawyers inventors and doctors because that's not what the norm expected us to be but your beliefs have to be stronger than the outside world. I think it is good to see black Ceo's there are not many. Do not use it as a excuse use it to make you stronger to say I'm proving the world wrong right now. The world does not care how sensitive you are especially black people we have to help each other to strive for excellence that's where community service comes into play. I let other people know my mistakes and bad experiences so they won't make those same mistakes that's what I mean by taking my words and using them to your advantage sometimes it helps to hear other people's mistakes so you know what not to do.

I'd only question how much of this negative expectation is coming from your outside world and how much is coming from within yourself.

[jessiwannabe]

Yes! If you surround yourself with negative things and do negitive things that's all you will get. If it is in you to be negative you will be it does come from within this is true.

[jessiwannabe]

Live in peace

[AKA_Monet]

The issue is with Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. is that if a candidate choses to knowingly participate in hazing activities prior to initiation.

The proof you seek to be a superior selection is in the GPA, appropriate classes and participation in relevant community service with much older members who want the best in you.

You can never prove something when you are not a part of it...

Moreover, there are my members who are in the same vicinity where you reside. By your statements we are already alerted to your intentions to cause harm to my Sorority. If you choose another NPHC sorority, I am unsure if they want you either.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Oh. My. God. Seriously. Please. Use. A. Punctuation. Key. Correctly. Other. Than. Just. The. Period. Your. Posts. Are. Giving. Me. A. Headache.

LOLZ.

For someone who wants to prove herself educated, and "above the norm", she's certainly not doing a very good job.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by jessiwannabe

Yes we should be educated be but that's not what's expected of us.

Says who? I expect all students in my classes, regardless of race, to come to class prepared, contribute to class discussion, etc. Don't blanketly state that any one group of people, for whatever reason, is not expected to be educated. Some people may perceive that they aren't expected to be educated, but that doesn't mean the expectation isn't there.

...but some pepole still believe that we should be separated and don't like us.

So what? Some people believe that all blonds are dumb sluts. Some people believe that all Muslims are terrorists. Some people believe that there is no God. Some people believe that there is a God. It doesn't make a hill of beans difference what some people believe; some people are wrong. What do you believe? That's what matters.

What's this thread about, anyway?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

We can all agree that there is no common definition of hazing, and we can all agree that some of the things that are called hazing are dumb. OK, stupid.

It just doesn't matter unless or until somebody can change that.

But it does matter in a thread like this, because if we just jump into blanket statements like "hazing is illegal" or "[some] hazing is okay" without establishing, at least for the purposes of this discussion what is meant by "hazing," some people are talking about apples, some are talking about oranges and some are talking about cumquats.

Can we agree that some of the things that are called hazing by some aren't hazing under any reasonable definition? Can we agree that some of the things called hazing would qualify as hazing under a GLO or university policy but not under the law? Because that is part of real the issue here, the real impediment to meaningful and effective conversation. Even your earlier post seemed to implicitly recognize this, when you said "I went through rush and pledging before this stuff was against the law, and frankly I doubt that you have any idea of what went on in that period." I took this as you basically saying that "kids today" have no idea what hazing really is -- in other words, some of what they are calling "hazing" isn't "real hazing."

Take the four examples that Mac offered as (my words) "acceptable hazing":

- having a study hall

- having a test of fraternity knowledge

- having pledges clean the fraternity house

- making pledges have a dress code

Do you consider these examples hazing? I certainly don't see any lawsuits in the offing from these, although depending on the circumstances, some of them might constitute hazing under the policies of some groups. (On the other hand, one these examples (the test) is mandated in my Fraternity.)

Breaking the law is not an option for us in the long term.

As I already pointed out, where I live, none of the things that Mac suggested (or, IIRC, that the OP suggested) would constitute "hazing" under the law because none of them would involve or risk physical injury. So none of them would involve "breaking the law," meaning that the simple statement "Hazing is illegal" begs the question "what do you mean by 'hazing.'"

[33girl]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

What's this thread about, anyway?

Jessi made a thread
Well, I don't think it's a good thread at all

[Kevin]

MC:

Some state statutes declare any situation created which results in "mental discomfort" to be punishable as a felony!

This is just a case of out-of-control prosecutorial discretion waiting to happen.


Take the Oklahoma statute:

F. For purposes of this section:
1. "Hazing" means an activity which recklessly or intentionally endangers the mental health or physical health or safety of a student for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with any organization operating subject to the sanction of the public or private school or of any institution of higher education in this state;
2. "Endanger the physical health" shall include but not be limited to any brutality of a physical nature, such as whipping, beating, branding, forced calisthenics, exposure to the elements, forced consumption of any food, alcoholic beverage as defined in Section 506 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, low-point beer as defined in Section 163.2 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, drug, controlled dangerous substance, or other substance, or any other forced physical activity which could adversely affect the physical health or safety of the individual; and
3. "Endanger the mental health" shall include any activity, except those activities authorized by law, which would subject the individual to extreme mental stress, such as prolonged sleep deprivation, forced prolonged exclusion from social contact, forced conduct which could result in extreme embarrassment, or any other forced activity which could adversely affect the mental health or dignity of the individual.
(emphasis added)

Under such a definition, yes, I suppose you could make a case that being forced to clean the bathroom of the fraternity house could "adversely affect" the dignity of a pledge.

That's really scary stuff.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

MC:

Some state statutes declare any situation created which results in "mental discomfort" to be punishable as a felony!

This is just a case of out-of-control prosecutorial discretion waiting to happen. . . .

That's really scary stuff.

Agreed! I sense a vagueness and overbreadth challenge is someone's future.

This just points up the importance of a common definition for hazing, even if it's just a common definition for the purposes of this thread.

It also shows the problems with making the blanket statement that "hazing is illegal." It is indeed, but how your state defines hazing and how my state defines hazing is quite, quite different. Without a common, workin definition, simply saying "hazing is illegal" is a pretty meaningless statement.