Phi Kappa Psi at U of Virginia Voluntarily Suspends Activities

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

I am dealing with facts.

It's a fact that UVA is under investigation for sexual assault related Title IX violations.

It's a fact that UVA is one of 12 schools receiving an even more in depth review due to the deep seeded problems with assault on that campus.

I understand the article is riddled with holes and inaccuracies pertaining to "Jackie" and her story.

But you can't throw the baby out with the bath water and ignore that UVA is one only 12 schools nation wide who is being investigated for serious sexual assault violations.

I have been unable to verify what you keep asserting as fact - that UVA is one of only 12 schools receiving an even more in depth review due to deep seeded problems with assault on that campus.

Do you have any other source besides what Eardly wrote in RS? If so, could you please share a link. If not, then I am seriously LOL.

[AZTheta]

OK I'm nit picking. It's the U.S. Department of Education Office for Civil Rights. Not "of" - "for". I've gone through some OCR investigations in my career.

I have been unable to uncover any published reports of "12 in depth compliance reviews." Still researching.

Here's a link to the OCR list from 5/1/2014:

http://www.ed.gov/news/press-release...investigations

ETA: a little more digging found this: https://uvasexualassaultcoalition.wo...liance-review/ Still searching. But have to go to the pool, so maybe later today I'll find something.

[Nanners52674]

I myself am having trouble finding a list of the 12 specific schools. So we'll go with that detail being fabricated.

What isn't fabricated is the link aztheta posted of the list of schools with open investigations and UVA is on that list. It's not even a long list compared with the number of universities in our country.

This whole thing is an absolute fiasco, but I don't agree with the thought process of Oh the article isn't true so of course UVA doesn't have a problem.

[AZTheta]

Paging SWTXBelle - I know there are some fallacies going on in this discussion.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by AZTheta

OK I'm nit picking. It's the U.S. Department of Education Office for Civil Rights. Not "of" - "for". I've gone through some OCR investigations in my career.

I have been unable to uncover any published reports of "12 in depth compliance reviews." Still researching.

Here's a link to the OCR list from 5/1/2014:

http://www.ed.gov/news/press-release...investigations

That's an old list. The latest one I could find was January of 2015 and it now includes 94 schools. I'm sure there have been more added since then...no government beauracracy is going to waste a frenzied moral panic like this one.

ETA: a little more digging found this: https://uvasexualassaultcoalition.wo...liance-review/ Still searching. But have to go to the pool, so maybe later today I'll find something.

Yeah I posted that link in a recent post. And another link that shows the student's lawsuit was dismissed in late March of this year. The filing of the lawsuit appears to be when the OCR started their compliance review. That was over four years ago, with no resolution in sight. But OCR assured VA Senator Tim Caine in a recent letter (responding to his letter that politely ask d "why the hell haven't you closed this case yet?") that they are working as fast as they can. Bahahahahahahaha!!

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

but I don't agree with the thought process of Oh the article isn't true so of course UVA doesn't have a problem.

No one has said "of course UVA doesn't have a problem". Young people are at a higher risk of sexual assault. It happens. It's a terrible thing. But let's stick to the facts rather than let propaganda whip us into a frenzy and focus on the wrong solutions. College females are at LESS risk than their non-college peers for sexual assault. So why all the hand-wringing about frats and college campuses? Why aren't we worried about jane doe who graduated from high school last year and is working at the local piggly wiggly? She's statstically much more likely to get raped than the freshman at UVa? So why the disparity in the attention given?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by honorgal

No one has said "of course UVA doesn't have a problem". Young people are at a higher risk of sexual assault. It happens. It's a terrible thing. But let's stick to the facts rather than let propaganda whip us into a frenzy and focus on the wrong solutions. College females are at LESS risk than their non-college peers for sexual assault. So why all the hand-wringing about frats and college campuses? Why aren't we worried about jane doe who graduated from high school last year and is working at the local piggly wiggly? She's statstically much more likely to get raped than the freshman at UVa? So why the disparity in the attention given?

What actions do you think should be taken to reduce rape?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

What actions do you think should be taken to reduce rape?

I think you would need to be more specific with your question.

Are we talking about something along the lines of the Hannah Graham case, the rape that didn't happen to Jackie (but let's pretend for the sake of discussion that it did, just as it was described in RS) or the situation described in the recent Esquire piece that I linked to a few pages back.

Here's the link again, in case you didn't read it before - its not nearly as salacious and riveting as the Jackie narrative that everyone wanted so badly to have happened. But it's a lot more representative of the types of cases that colleges are dealing with and OCR is investigating.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics...-justice-case/

Would you say that those three examples of campus "rape" would all be amenable to the exact same prevention and reduction strategies?

[lake]

I thought this was relevant to this conversation. It's about putting a law in place to protect a student's due process rights. The article references a student who was banned from campus after being falsely accused of rape.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/news...e-process-bill

[1964Alum]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I don't know if it's related to reality and neither do you. Let's deal in facts. Not feelings. Or second hand anecdotes. What are the supporting facts for your contention that "the problem there is very real and has been swept under the carpet for many, many years". Are you claiming this problem is unique to UVA culture?

I trust my friends, individuals of great integrity and high professional achievement. You don't trust yours?

[navane]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

I trust my friends, individuals of great integrity and high professional achievement. You don't trust yours?

Look, I know a great number of intelligent professionals with integrity. Some of them still believe that sorority women are all hazed because "I heard you guys circle their fat". Having integrity or professional achievements doesn't automatically make one's beliefs factual or correct.

You said, "I heard many, many stories from concerned parents and grandparents about rape on the campus of UVA". To use a silly example, being concerned that your child may drive into a ditch late at night doesn't necessarily mean that she will drive into a ditch or that there is a real, ditch accident epidemic.

The only way I can follow your logic is if you are saying that you have first-hand knowledge that your friends' daughters and grandaughters have been victims of sexual assault at UVA. However, the phrasing "I heard...stories..." doesn't seem to lend itself well to the logic here. To me, that's like someone saying, "I heard stories that you guys circle fat."

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by navane

Look, I know a great number of intelligent professionals with integrity. Some of them still believe that sorority women are all hazed because "I heard you guys circle their fat". Having integrity or professional achievements doesn't automatically make one's beliefs factual or correct.

You said, "I heard many, many stories from concerned parents and grandparents about rape on the campus of UVA". To use a silly example, being concerned that your child may drive into a ditch late at night doesn't necessarily mean that she will drive into a ditch or that there is a real, ditch accident epidemic.

The only way I can follow your logic is if you are saying that you have first-hand knowledge that your friends' daughters and grandaughters have been victims of sexual assault at UVA. However, the phrasing "I heard...stories..." doesn't seem to lend itself well to the logic here. To me, that's like someone saying, "I heard stories that you guys circle fat."

Well,yes, urban legends abound on college campuses.

I would also add that in the specific example of UVA, that community, parents and students would understandably be "concerned" in the wake of the Hannah Graham abduction and murder and the false allegations in the Rolling Stone article. If all of that had happened at my daughter's university in the past 6 months, I would be concerned too. And I would imagine that all sorts of urban legends and rumors would crop up. But concern wouldn't be factual evidence to support making the statement:

"The problem there is very real and has indeed been swept under the carpet for many, many years."

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by lake

I thought this was relevant to this conversation. It's about putting a law in place to protect a student's due process rights. The article references a student who was banned from campus after being falsely accused of rape.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/news...e-process-bill

Thanks for the link. This would be a welcome due process protection considering the OCR's "mandate" that all schools lower their standard to a preponderance of the evidence for a guilty finding.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by AZTheta

Paging SWTXBelle - I know there are some fallacies going on in this discussion.

So many. So many. My head hurts. Honestly, y'all check yourselves before you wreck yourselves: www.yourlogicalfallacyis.com

[ASTalumna06]

'Catfishing’ over love interest might have spurred U-Va. gang-rape debacle:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-rape-debacle/

Ryan Duffin was a freshman at the University of Virginia when he met a student named Jackie.

Both teenagers were new to campus in September 2012, and the pair quickly became friends through a shared appreciation of alternative rock bands such as Coheed and Cambria and the Silversun Pickups. Early on, Duffin sensed that Jackie was interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with him. Duffin valued her friendship but politely rebuffed Jackie’s advances for more.

Just days after he met her, Duffin said, he was goaded into a text message conversation with a U-Va. junior named “Haven Monahan,” whom Jackie said she knew from a chemistry class.

What followed was what lawyers representing U-Va. associate dean Nicole Eramo described in new court documents as an elaborate scheme to win him over — a practice known as “catfishing” — that morphed into a sensational claim of gang rape at a U-Va. fraternity and a Rolling Stone story that rocked the U-Va. campus and shocked the nation.