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Risk Management - Hazing & etc. This forum covers Risk Management topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorder Prevention, Liability, etc.


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  #1  
Old 02-16-2019, 12:26 PM
Rod D Rod D is offline
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Define Hazing

Didn't see too much recent discussion (and times be changing these days), so open question -- define hazing.

Legal definitions seem to focus on bodily or emotional harm. Or the potential of such harm.

Physical beating and such is obvious and easy. But what about telling someone to go to the store and pick up construction materials? Cleaning? Squeezing a plastic chicken in someone's face?
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  #2  
Old 02-16-2019, 01:02 PM
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The problem with any definition is its intractability. And there will always be those "but what about ..." questions.

I think we need, rather than redefine, focus on recognizing. There is a difference, for example, between embarrassment and humiliation, between work (answering phones, cleaning silver, obtaining signatures) and humiliation, between discomfit and harm. But we live in a society that doesn't value individual thought, so we look for a definition that cannot be differently interpreted, and end up banning everything.

I cannot imagine there is a single greek-letter organization in the country that has disrespect or humiliation as one of its values.

But we also have raised generations of students who want so badly to fit in that they are unwilling to say "STOP. That's enough. I won't abase myself or allow you to abase me"
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Old 02-16-2019, 04:51 PM
*winter* *winter* is offline
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Idk. I just wonder sometimes- we "banned" hazing by taking away signatures/interviews and simple, fun things...but people are not only still hazing, but they're becoming increasingly sadistic about it (pouring gasoline in someone??? WTF?) I wonder what direction we are really moving in here...
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:55 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by *winter* View Post
Idk. I just wonder sometimes- we "banned" hazing by taking away signatures/interviews and simple, fun things...but people are not only still hazing, but they're becoming increasingly sadistic about it (pouring gasoline in someone??? WTF?) I wonder what direction we are really moving in here...
People figure in for a buck, in for a quarter. “If we’re going to get in trouble for hazing for anything we do we might as well go over the top.” I mean, we made a bulletin board at the house with photos of all the pledges and their majors, hometowns etc. We had a lot of sisters who were doing internships or student teaching and this was a way that if they could stop by the house they knew who the new girls were, if anyone had gone to their HS etc. Guess what! We were told this was hazing because it “puts the pledges on display.” That was as opposite from our intent as you could get - we were trying to help the sisters who weren’t there day to day feel involved. It’s hard to not feel hostile and resentful when your good intentions are twisted in such a way.

So what happened is the chapters who really didn’t have a hazing culture are told that they do, and the chapters who really did have learned nothing.

And I loved doing interviews and getting signatures and such. It gave me an excuse to talk to people- I probably wouldn’t have had the guts to otherwise. If it was “hazing” to provide a way for me to introduce myself to the Greek community and get over my shyness, well, consider me happily hazed.
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:24 PM
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I'm really surprised that the bulletin board was considered hazing. That sounds like a great idea and I honestly can't see a problem with it.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:28 PM
Rod D Rod D is offline
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I'm really surprised that the bulletin board was considered hazing. That sounds like a great idea and I honestly can't see a problem with it.
And that's at the heart of my question. If something so trivial as that is considered "hazing" then where are we at.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:20 AM
Titchou Titchou is offline
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I'm really surprised that the bulletin board was considered hazing. That sounds like a great idea and I honestly can't see a problem with it.
Probably wouldn't have been if they included all chapter members...it was the singling out that they had issues with. Wonder if pledge formal and leadout would have been in my day!
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:37 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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The sad thing about that to me is, sometimes your pledgeship is the only time you DO have to feel singled out - in a good way. I think we see a lot of that on here when girls say they arenít connecting with anyone.

And of course this was all pre internet and pre Instagram. Itís just ironic to me that nowadays pictures of members (who may or may not be doing anything remotely connected to Greek life) seem to be the main way of attracting pledges to join your group. But this is going away from the subject of the thread and into a get off my lawn post.
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
So what happened is the chapters who really didnít have a hazing culture are told that they do, and the chapters who really did have learned nothing.
We went one better ... our traditional big/little reveal was changed because "someone" felt it "might" be "considered" hazing.

Not that it was. It wasn't. But someone - an unknown - might - if drunk enough, I guess - consider it - whether it was or not - hazing.

How are students to make decisions and learn ?
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:40 PM
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There is a tendency to overthink things and lose sight of the forest through the trees. When we start to micro-analyze, common sense can go right out the window. And a lack of common sense seems to underscore a lot of the bad things that happen in Greek land (and in the Harvard administration building, for that matter).
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Old 02-18-2019, 04:03 PM
KSUViolet06 KSUViolet06 is offline
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You have to consider "acting in spirit of the rule" here.

Think of it like we do silence periods and PNM interactions and recruitment.

Most schools are focused more on following the "spirit of the rule" rather than the exact letter.

You can have normal interactions with Patty if she says hi to you. You should not be talking to Patty about recruitment but if you see Patty in the cafeteria you can speak to her. That's the spirit of the rule.

When we get focused on the exact letter of the rule is when we get into the "oohhhhh my god I'm snitching because I saw a Kappa wave hi to Patty in the Union."

Same with hazing. We can't go so far left that we just do nothing for the NMs in any sort of individually celebratory manner for fear of every exact letter of the law. But at same time, one person being even remotely uncomfortable with something is not necessarily hazing (ex: Becky may be uncomfortable with a required NM exam, does not make it hazing.)

I also think that in keeping with the spirit of most hazing policies, active collegians are not dumb. They KNOW when something is out of step with policy. It is not as nitpicky as you think.

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  #12  
Old 02-18-2019, 04:48 PM
Rod D Rod D is offline
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So is this "hazing?" (squeezing a chicken in cadet's face)

https://www.facebook.com/IndianaUniv...2724941475653/

OK if done as part of police training?
Not ok if a GLO or club team does it?
Does context matter? Why?
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:25 AM
*winter* *winter* is offline
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As silly as it seems, there's a point to doing that exercise in police training. Sometimes officers are going to see things that are downright funny (drunk people doing/saying stupid stuff, for example), but they can't react normally (laugh) because it would not look very professional. I can't see how this would be relevant to a Greek organization. As former military, a lot of what we do is taken and used in "well the military does x, y and z in training" arguement. But, what people fail to realize is there's usually a deeper purpose to it in the military, plus the overall structure is teaching you to listen to those in charge and not question them.
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:23 PM
navane navane is offline
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Originally Posted by *winter* View Post
As silly as it seems, there's a point to doing that exercise in police training. Sometimes officers are going to see things that are downright funny (drunk people doing/saying stupid stuff, for example), but they can't react normally (laugh) because it would not look very professional. I can't see how this would be relevant to a Greek organization. As former military, a lot of what we do is taken and used in "well the military does x, y and z in training" arguement. But, what people fail to realize is there's usually a deeper purpose to it in the military, plus the overall structure is teaching you to listen to those in charge and not question them.

I agree. I am both a firefighter and a peace officer. I never had a plastic chicken squeezed in my face in any of my academies; but, I understand the lesson that the instructors were presenting. To tag onto what winter is explaining, fire, military and police have something that GLOs don't - a very real and present need to be able to perform under pressure in a life-threatening situation. Along with that comes the need to be able to follow directions from superiors, think quickly, and act decisively. Fraternity and sorority members do not, I repeat, DO NOT have the same expectation to perform in life and death situations. So, comparisons of GLOs to military or first responders isn't really equivalent and, yes, context matters.

Now, that said.....what about those videos of military personnel getting hazed by having their qualification pins jammed into their chests, or Sailors going through wog/shellback ceremonies, or some firefighter duct taping a probie to the wall or whatever. Not ok. That's hazing and does not have a direct correlation to a real world task or expectation. When I was in my first firefighter academy, we were "punished" with push-ups or flutter kicks for not getting correct answers on questions when asked; but, an instructor was always on the ground doing the punishment exercise with us. The purpose was to impress on us the need to know the information and to maintain our physical fitness. You might be able to argue that forcing fraternity pledges to do push-ups will also convince them to memorize fraternity history, but I still think that is not entirely the same. Being able to remember the names of the 12 founders is not the same as knowing the 10 standard firefighting orders and 18 wildland fire safety rules which are directly related to life and death safety considerations. Further, I'll laugh at anyone who tries to say that maintaining physical strength is a key component of fraternities and sororities.

The chicken squeaking was a little silly; but, I understand the point of it and the video shows to me that none of the recruits were unnecessarily harmed or punished excessively. In terms of GLOs, pledge pictures and hometowns on a bulletin board is NOT hazing and neither is pledge interviews or an innocent scavenger hunt. But, come on, don't act naive. You know full well that things like scavenger hunts were banned as hazing because some idiots decided that, if a scavenger hunt for innocent items was fun, a scavenger hunt for liquor, nudity, vandalism and sexual imagery would be even funnier. So, because some can't be trusted with a basic task, it all gets locked down. I mean, instead of having a party with some beers and good times, they have to shovel entire handles of liquor down pledges throats until 911 is called or a kid dies.

Then we wonder why we can't have nice things and we wring our hands over squeaking chickens, scavenger hunts, bulletin boards, and house chores.
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  #15  
Old 02-19-2019, 01:05 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Then SOME idiots should be punished, not the whole Greek system. As I said, the ones who didnít haze will feel resentful and the ones who do haze will figure ways around it and not learn a damn thing.
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