Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Campus Police are real police officers.

Yes, some campuses have campus police who are sworn police officers. Some campuses have "campus/public safety/security" who are civilian security patrols. Some campuses have a "campus police/public safety/security" combination of sworn police officers and civilian security patrols.

I agree with AGDee.

Issues often arise because people (including students) often do not know the protocol. Campus police often do not have the same abilities as the city police and sheriff's departments and the level of deference to the city law enforcement can vary by the school and city. The campus civilian security patrols definitely do not have the same abilities and therefore have to defer to the city police and sheriff's offices. This process can be complicated for campus crimes including sexual assault and rape. It can be a difficult process of protecting the campus and students while protecting the institution (legally, etc), not ruffling feathers in the local police and sheriff's departments, and not losing jobs among campus police/campus security/public safety.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yes, some campuses have campus police who are sworn police officers. Some campuses have "campus/public safety/security" who are civilian security patrols. Some campuses have a "campus police/public safety/security" combination of sworn police officers and civilian security patrols.

I agree with AGDee.

Issues often arise because people (including students) often do not know the protocol. Campus police often do not have the same abilities as the city police and sheriff's departments and the level of deference to the city law enforcement can vary by the school and city. The campus civilian security patrols definitely do not have the same abilities and therefore have to defer to the city police and sheriff's offices. This process can be complicated for campus crimes including sexual assault and rape. It can be a difficult process of protecting the campus and students while protecting the institution (legally, etc), not ruffling feathers in the local police and sheriff's departments, and not losing jobs among campus police/campus security/public safety.

I totally agree. Whoever decided on this system really screwed up. The Campus police, even when real police should be a division under the local city police. Actual crimes should NEVER be adjudicated by a college review board except as an adjunct to criminal proceedings.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AGDee

On some campuses, Campus Police are real officers.

The problem is, a campus judicial board is not a real court of law.

Our country has a criminal justice system for a reason. I cannot comprehend why campuses are expected to conduct their own separate judicial process.

The criminal justice system is not tasked with protecting the victims in any way. If the college can do that, they should.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Now, do I think we should just go around kicking people out of school every time there is an accusation? No. But I think, in a university setting, the burden of proof should be much more akin to that of a civil trial, i.e. 51%, and that they should be able to look at things like patterns of behavior, e.g. if someone is accused three times but none of them can be "proven," you need to look at why this individual keeps getting accused.

The problem with using a civil litigation burden of proof is mixing that with criminal-style penalties. Civil penalties are typically monetary awards paid to the other party, with maybe some injunctive relief or the like. And, of course, if this were to be treated as a civil action, then it's alleged victim vs. alleged assailant. But if the result of the proceeding could be the university taking disciplinary action, that is more akin to criminal penalties, and I think the higher burden of proof should apply, and it should university vs. alleged assailant.

[LillyPhi]

Johns Hopkins University needs to be added to the list of schools being investigated.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Here's a nice link for everyone asking why a university would investigate at all:

http://powderroom.jezebel.com/three-...1572268737/all

[AGDee]

Yes, a societal problem. But if the law said they can't prosecute, then how can the school take action? If the rapists fought the school, wouldn't the argument "You can't suspend me because even the district attorney said there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute" be sufficient to prevent the school from taking action?

[DrPhil]

Is it similar (like a school's version) to the burden of proof for a civil suit versus a criminal suit? The school can investigate and punish on the bases of upholding school policies and campus safety. Schools have their own committees and councils that handle campus concerns. The evidence needed to be punished will vary by school and is more along the lines of "just in case" rather than the same hard evidence required for criminal prosecution.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, a societal problem. But if the law said they can't prosecute, then how can the school take action? If the rapists fought the school, wouldn't the argument "You can't suspend me because even the district attorney said there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute" be sufficient to prevent the school from taking action?

I would think that the school wouldn't be prevented from taking action - students have been suspended/expelled for much less serious crimes than sexual assault. The big problem for these schools in cases such as these is the potential for lawsuits… from both sides.

I know there are cases where a complete mishandling of the complaint has occurred, but for the most part, I think these schools feel stuck. I've read about some of the individual cases, and in at least a handful of them, the schools are not being accused of gross negligence. Well, they are, but on the surface, it's not a reasonable complaint; not one that should earn a student huge dollar amounts in damages, anyway.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, a societal problem. But if the law said they can't prosecute, then how can the school take action? If the rapists fought the school, wouldn't the argument "You can't suspend me because even the district attorney said there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute" be sufficient to prevent the school from taking action?

No. Schools can kick people out as they see fit, as long as their policies aren't violating laws themselves (e.g. targeting a protected class). You don't have a constitutional right to attend college.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

No. Schools can kick people out as they see fit, as long as their policies aren't violating laws themselves (e.g. targeting a protected class). You don't have a constitutional right to attend college.

Yup. Though breaking housing contracts on the school's side can be screwy in some states.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

No. Schools can kick people out as they see fit, as long as their policies aren't violating laws themselves (e.g. targeting a protected class). You don't have a constitutional right to attend college.

Really? So I can pay full tuition, room & board and for absolutely no reason at all, they can just say "Sorry, you're done, leave"? Are they legally obligated to return your fees?

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Really? So I can pay full tuition, room & board and for absolutely no reason at all, they can just say "Sorry, you're done, leave"? Are they legally obligated to return your fees?

Nope. Schools have a lot of power over students that people aren't aware of. When you attend you agree to go by the handbook which essentially says you can be booted for anything in a lot of places.

[KXEM]

I sat on my university's disciplinary committee for 2 years and I did participate in a sexual assault case. It was an extremely difficult situation and the victim was very hesitant to come forward at all and did so only after being pressured by numerous sources months after the fact. After almost 10 hours of questioning/testimony and deliberation we found in favor of the accused. There was a separate case filed with the city/state on the matter and we were instructed that our decision was in no way, shape, or form going to have any bearing on that case or vice versa. And even then it wasn't a case of whether the law was violated, it was solely whether or not school policy was violated. I know the parents of the victim were very upset with our decision, but the bottom line is that until you are put in that position where you have to choose guilty or innocent you can't judge that decision. Sure we could have exhausted days more of questioning and deliberation and investigation but the bottom line is that it is really a matter for the police/legal system and not the university to decide.

Schools lack the necessary resources to fully investigate many claims, yes I feel they should create a safe place to promote learning. But it is not the school's duty to police people, they should take the necessary steps to remove obvious threats but to me its silly to think they could possibly handle serious investigations into sexual assault in the same capacity as local law enforcement.

And to comment about victim rights...Before I was contacted about joining the committee I had no idea that it existed nor the process for reporting any of the violations that came to it. I knew how to report if something was stolen etc but my first instinct would never be to contact campus security or the school, it would be to contact the freaking police!

I know none of what I said excuses the behavior but I think its unreasonable to think a school could better deal with a case of sexual assault than the local law enforcement.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Why reporting to the police isn't the solution to the college rape problem:

http://jezebel.com/why-reporting-to-...leg-1578988324