"The Dreaded Phone Call"

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Quite frankly, that chapter sounds like such a bunch of a-holes that I think the last thing they're going to worry about is how Pam or her mom/grandma etc feels.

Agreed. I also feel that the reason NEEDS to stay in chapter, and not broadcast among even the newly-bid.

[UGAalum94]

Can we do a GLO roll call of which groups require legacy release calls and which don't? (I think most legacy policies are available publicly, which leads me to believe they won't be considered MS in themselves.) I'm just curious because I thought it was nearly universal, but I'm way wrong.

My understanding is that Alpha Gamma Delta does.

Base on this thread, Gamma Phi Beta does not.
Phi Mu does not
Kappa does not

[Ocalagirl]

I know Alpha Xi Delta does and this is from their national website.

If the chapter has received a reference on a legacy, and that legacy is released, the mother, grandmother or sister is called and told of the decision.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Two thoughts:

1) I think that notification or not, HC is right in that organizations should do everything possible to take a legacy. If you have a leg who is alright, meets basic membership standards and what not, I think you can find one more cut to make to keep her around. I'm sorry if you have to cut someone who is a better fit with the chapter, but keep in mind that a legacy is going to be easy to retain and may possibly encourage donations of time/money from her connected relative.

(I know this is totally impossible on campuses where there are tons of legs. I am talking about fewer than a dozen legs coming through on a campus with quota of 50, i.e. many places in the midwest)

2) If you notify the leg's relative, you are sparing her from having to do it. I know that was tough when I went through rush (I "regretted with interest", and they did not invite me back). Also, if the truth is that you have more legs than quota, you can very simply state that to the relative. Any reasonable person would get that you can not fit two pounds into a one-pound bag.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Two thoughts:

1) I think that notification or not, HC is right in that organizations should do everything possible to take a legacy. If you have a leg who is alright, meets basic membership standards and what not, I think you can find one more cut to make to keep her around. I'm sorry if you have to cut someone who is a better fit with the chapter, but keep in mind that a legacy is going to be easy to retain and may possibly encourage donations of time/money from her connected relative.

(I know this is totally impossible on campuses where there are tons of legs. I am talking about fewer than a dozen legs coming through on a campus with quota of 50, i.e. many places in the midwest)

2) If you notify the leg's relative, you are sparing her from having to do it. I know that was tough when I went through rush (I "regretted with interest", and they did not invite me back). Also, if the truth is that you have more legs than quota, you can very simply state that to the relative. Any reasonable person would get that you can't fit two pounds into a one-pound bag.

Snaps for writing this clearly.

AFAIK, Alpha Delta Pi requires a call - but this may be a chapter to chapter rule.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by honeychile

Agreed. I also feel that the reason NEEDS to stay in chapter, and not broadcast among even the newly-bid.

Is SK so unique in its rule that what happens in the room stays in the room? I know that actives get told about MS if they're not there (even though they're not supposed to be, it just happens.) But telling NMs about MS? No way in hell.

ETA: SK does notify, or we did as of several years ago.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Is SK so unique in its rule that what happens in the room stays in the room? I know that actives get told about MS if they're not there (even though they're not supposed to be, it just happens.) But telling NMs about MS? No way in hell.

ETA: SK does notify, or we did as of several years ago.

It's not supposed to happen, but it occasionally does, either by mistaking or out of anger.

[UGAalum94]

I bet everyone has the rule about MS in terms of not revealing discussion or rankings, but I guess some people just don't care.

I can remember that it was hard not to follow up on MS conversations in the house when it was only members who had participated in MS around. It really seemed rigid that you were supposed to just have it occur in isolation. But it's probably great practice for when the NMs show up, so you don't say anything in front of them. And as much as MS always made me want to quit, it was probably better that we didn't keep fussing about it.

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by honeychile

AFAIK, Alpha Delta Pi requires a call - but this may be a chapter to chapter rule.

I would think it is chapter to chapter. Or province to province / district to district. As Chapter Advisor I was never told to do it, and as CPD, I was told directly by my DTD NOT to do it....

On the whole subject of the thread, I guess my experiences have just been so different from everyone else's. I will give my disclaimer now that all of this is MY opinion and is NOT reflective of any policy of my sorority. As it currently stands, I wholeheartedly respect and agree with our legacy policies. I base all of my conclusions and opinions on these real-life experiences:

1. One of my chapters was raked over the coals on a different messageboard a couple of years ago. They had released an alumna's sister, and she was upset about it. She ranted about lack of respect for alumnae - just because her sister didn't get in. She thought her sister was fantabulous, but in real life was annoying the fire out of everyone by going around announcing that she was guaranteed a bid because of her legacy status. And that was the least of her indiscretions. This attitude (expressed by the alumna) does not heighten my desire to call alumnae or extend respect to them beyond the current requirements of our legacy policy.

2. Last fall, a chapter had 5 legacies going through recruitment with a new member class of 29. They released one and pledged the other 4. Of those 4, two had their membership cancelled the next semester. There were many wonderful PNMs who were not extended a bid to this chapter because they kept legacies that might not have been kept without that status.

3. It is a very common feeling amongst legacies that "they only like me because of my mom or sister. Do they really like me for me?" And when we make such a big deal about it, and even consider releasing or lowering the bid list "rank" of another PNM who IS liked better or who DOES have more assets, we are confirming their suspicions. I prefer that all new members be given equal treatment and consideration based on THEIR qualities, not those of their family. I would certainly hope that others base their opinions of me on me - not on my family.

4. I have had alumnae threaten chapters, threaten Universities, threaten Panhellenic, threaten ME, call Executive Office, call International Officers, and so much more - because their legacy was released. For every considerate or non-complaining alumna, I've dealt with 5 rude ones. Again, not heightening my desire to respect alumnae just because 20 years ago they were active.

5. When I do think respect for the alumna should be considered is when the sister has remained involved with the organization and given of her time and talents - to a chapter, to an alumnae association, to the sorority as a whole, or whatever. Even then, if the PNM isn't going to fit, she isn't going to fit. I know we hate using that cop-out, but I don't know how else to put it. Some people weren't cut out for Greek life. Many times they are pressured by their family members to do it, then they wind up dropping out. But not after having prevented someone with a genuine desire to be involved from being in the chapter.

The only way that I would consider calling an alumna is if she included a note with her legacy introduction forms explaining that should the PNM be released, she would not grill the chapter as to why, but she would prefer to notify her daughter / sister privately so as to avoid embarrassment for her in front of other PNMs.

I realize that my feelings are going to be considered harsh by some, but to me, there are many more reasons NOT to call than there are TO call.

[KSUViolet06]

I think every NPC has rules about MS being private info. We were pretty strict about it. Anything that was discussed in MS stayed in MS. Our advisors didn't even want to hear us talking about it amongst ourselves in the house after it was over.

We just had a general rule that once it ws over, it was over and you just squashed it. It kept a lot of the "post MS ohmygosh I can't believe she said ____ or I can't believe they decided that ohmygosh I hate _____" to a minimum.

[UGAalum94]

jwright25,

It stinks that they acted that way. Honestly, the organization should make it clear that that junk won't be tolerated. You're performing a service for the organization, and they need to act right.

On a different note, I wonder if you have any kids?

I'm not suggesting that not having kids invalidates someone's opinions about legacies, but I usually see a different attitude in people who face the realistic possibility of it happening to their kids, who as far as they know, seem well qualified.

I don't think that chapters should ever take a risk on a legacy when they have far better candidates. By risk, I mean bad grades, questionable reputation, whatever.

But when the legacies are as "good" as the other PNMs you put on your bid list, by whatever standard you are using, I think it's fine that they get priority.

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

It stinks that they acted that way. Honestly, the organization should make it clear that that junk won't be tolerated. You're performing a service for the organization, and they need to act right.

Every summer there is a wonderful article in our magazine that outlines the legacy policy. While I don't recall whether or not it states that there won't be phone calls, I did do some further research and determined that it is a general policy that we are NOT to call. The reasoning behind it is that it is the PNM's decision whether or not to share her experience.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

On a different note, I wonder if you have any kids?

I don't. And I had a feeling that it would come up. Not specifically from you. Just in general. Because I considered that myself. I had to think about how one day I might have a daughter in this situation. While I absolutely cannot predict how I will feel when I do have kids, I do think about it a lot and what kind of parent I would be. I know that without a doubt I would be available to my daughter to talk if she was released, but I just don't think that I am entitled to know about it before she does.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I'm not suggesting that not having kids invalidates someone's opinions about legacies, but I usually see a different attitude in people who face the realistic possibility of it happening to their kids, who as far as they know, seem well qualified.

But if I am not allowed to know why she was released, why would it matter how well qualified she is or isn't? Being told she is released is different from being told why. I think we've all agreed that the alumna on the receiving end of a call should simply say "Thank You" and end the conversation. We'll still love our daughters and think that they are well qualified. Just not a match for that particular chapter of our sorority.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I don't think that chapters should ever take a risk on a legacy when they have far better candidates. By risk, I mean bad grades, questionable reputation, whatever.

But when the legacies are as "good" as the other PNMs you put on your bid list, by whatever standard you are using, I think it's fine that they get priority.

There were no obvious risks with the two legacies that I mentioned above as having been cancelled after one semester. They had good enough grades to make the grade cut, good standards, etc. They weren't very involved in high school, and we knew that there was some outside pressure from the alumnae to get them to go through. There were women with higher GPAs, many more activities, and - frankly - better personalities who did not get a bid. Those women most likely would still be involved.

I don't think we should change our policy because of this, and we are treading away from the "to call or not to call" discussion and more into a general discussion of legacy policy. But that's my fault for bringing it up.

[UGAalum94]

What group are you in? I was just wondering for the tally.

I just wanted to clarify that the my comment about "seeming well qualified" was intended to go with idea of giving some preference to legacies, rather than expecting phone calls that would explain why she wasn't.

I think most people who favor preferential treatment for legacies don't want to see them get in no matter what, but they want it to be the deciding factor when everything else is equal. So moms with PNM who are as well qualified as other PNMs hope that the policy just gives a little edge.

If an organization is interested in legacies to build a multi-generation attachment to an organization, I think it's cool, but I think people who see it playing out for their kids are more interested in it than undergraduates who just want to pick based on "fit." Is it more superficial and selfish to want your kid to get a little special treatment or more superficial and selfish to pick a girl because she's just like you?

(Again, I know my feelings on the matter don't count for much, but I can embrace not calling because it's not practical and it doesn't really work as far as offering respect to the alumna. I just can't make myself buy in that it's really a privacy issue for the PNM. If the mom or even just a rec writer called the chapter the day of parties to see if the PNM had been invited back, you really wouldn't tell her? Or is it that you feel the guest should know first?)

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

What group are you in? I was just wondering for the tally.

Alpha Delta Pi

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I just wanted to clarify that the my comment about "seeming well qualified" was intended to go with idea of giving some preference to legacies, rather than expecting phone calls that would explain why she wasn't.

Gotcha. I agree.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I think most people who favor preferential treatment for legacies don't want to see them get in no matter what, but they want it to be the deciding factor when everything else is equal. So moms with PNM who are as well qualified as other PNMs hope that the policy just gives a little edge.

I absolutely agree. When everything else is absolutely equal, I think the legacy should get the advantage.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

If an organization is interested in legacies to build a multi-generation attachment to an organization, I think it's cool, but I think people who see it playing out for their kids are more interested in it than undergraduates who just want to pick based on "fit." Is it more superficial and selfish to want your kid to get a little special treatment or more superficial and selfish to pick a girl because she's just like you?

Mmmmm. I think it can go both ways. I do think it is superficial and selfish to demand that my kid get special treatment. Again - if she is not judged on her own merits, we are doing her a disservice and setting her up to always expect special treatment because of who her parents are. And as to the undergraduate's perspective - isn't recruitment about picking who will be an asset to your chapter? Sometimes that means picking girls who are just like you. We are often taught that in recruitment, you need to "replace yourself" and to replace the seniors who have graduated. I'm not advocating throwing diversity out the door - but even when searching for diverse new members, you want to make sure that she will be comfortable in the setting of the sorority and not be a complete outcast.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

(Again, I know my feelings on the matter don't count for much, but I can embrace not calling because it's not practical and it doesn't really work as far as offering respect to the alumna.

But I think your feelings DO count for much. I think we should consider all sides to the matter, and I love discussing them. I love hearing other opinions, and it has happened that my own feelings have changed as a result of hearing an argument that I hadn't before considered.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I just can't make myself buy in that it's really a privacy issue for the PNM. If the mom or even just a rec writer called the chapter the day of parties to see if the PNM had been invited back, you really wouldn't tell her? Or is it that you feel the guest should know first?)

I feel that the guest should know first. And I guess that I just feel that a PNM's business is a PNM's business. If SHE wants to tell the whole world who she cut and who cut her - fine. But she may be embarrassed, or she may wish to spin it to her family member or rec writer that SHE was the one doing the cutting to save some face. It's not my place to embarrass her further by saying, "No, sorry. We don't want her."

[UGAalum94]

Thanks for being so kind.

When I was explaining that my feelings on the topic didn't matter, it was in acknowledgment of my having been annoying with my incessant questioning in another thread. I would expect my opinions to matter to my own group some, but when I question other people's policies, I just want to be clear that I understand my lack of status and that it's purely theoretical. I am sincerely interested and honestly thinking about what policy would be ideal, but I don't want anyone to think I believe I know more about what policies their group's should have than they do or that I expect my feelings to matter to them.

So much of the authenticity of MS standards really does depend on the chapter, especially the undergraduate leadership, too. (Are you choosing this PNM because she really is a great girl or because her brother or boyfriend is in a fraternity that you want to have more socials with? Both things help the group, but to me, one seems more legitimate than the other. If you are chapter that does consider her connections on campus, consider her connections at home as well, is all I'd say.)

I do appreciate your kind words about alums sincerely.