Alabama recruitment fall-out

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

ETA: Whether or not people are consciously racist, the fact is that we tell women rushing at Bama over and over and over again that they have to have recs, meet people in advance, be perfectly primed, etc. That means that the system is not set up for women from different socio-economic or racial backgrounds to have a successful rush. The fact that one or two non-white girls make it through from time to time doesn't change that.

I agree with much of that actually -- I think girls whose families are not at all familiar with this process are at a disadvantage with the preparation -- when gathering recs for instance.

And it certainly isn't a system set up for people of different socio-economic backgrounds. One of the questions on many GLO's national rec form concerns the rec-writer's best guess regarding the PNM's ability to honor financial obligations.

But I disagree that only one or two non-white girls make it through from time to time.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by SoCalGirl

The chapter members need to be open and there needs to be a pool of PNMs that can help improve the diversity. If formal rush continues to have few to no non-whites and chapters max out quota/total during formal, they'll continue to be white. More chapters need to actively seek out diversity during COB and Panhel needs to actively attract diversity to the formal rush PNM pool.

Why?

The campus Panhellenic (at any school) should aim to attract intelligent and involved students. If they're white, black, purple, or yellow, it shouldn't matter.

If the problem was getting AA students interested in NPC sororities, then there would be a whole lot of schools splashed on the front page of the newspaper. That's not the issue here. The issue is that there are AA students who are intelligent and involved, and they were turned down simply because of the color of their skin.

This doesn't mean that Panhellenic has to change how they attract people to participate in recruitment; it means they need to not blatantly discriminate against the people who were interested in the first place.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

I didn't make that claim -- you make the claim that I knew something about girls who don't come from the "right background:"



And I did, actually.

Okay, I think you and I are in agreement that you can't gauge how many AA women are "interested" in rushing based on how many sign up, because there will be a significant number of women who don't want to the be tokenized, who don't want the media attention, etc.

My point is that it goes even beyond that. Even before all the controversy happened, if an AA woman thought "man, NPC sororities look cool, I wanna do that!" and then spent a few minutes online finding out she needs recs, personal connections, etc., how likely is she to continue with the process knowing she doesn't have any of these things?

I have heard PNM's told time and time again on this board that they have to be able to get recs, because they can ask teachers and people at church and so on. The thing is, for AA women living in AA communities, that just is NOT true.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Okay, I think you and I are in agreement that you can't gauge how many AA women are "interested" in rushing based on how many sign up, because there will be a significant number of women who don't want to the be tokenized, who don't want the media attention, etc.

My point is that it goes even beyond that. Even before all the controversy happened, if an AA woman thought "man, NPC sororities look cool, I wanna do that!" and then spent a few minutes online finding out she needs recs, personal connections, etc., how likely is she to continue with the process knowing she doesn't have any of these things?

I have heard PNM's told time and time again on this board that they have to be able to get recs, because they can ask teachers and people at church and so on. The thing is, for AA women living in AA communities, that just is NOT true.

I absolutely agree with just about everything you said there.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

That's cute. You have a Latino friend.

That's what I got out of that anecdote. "Wonderful immigrant man from South American country" was PC for "(possibly) illegal amigo from disadvantaged circumstances had a daughter who beat the odds, so it IS possible! And I knew him!"

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

I absolutely agree with just about everything you said there.

Also. As someone who was interested in NPC greek life (well, being greek generally, but initially exposed and sought out NPC first) I couldn't have told you WHERE to find an NPC alumna. I had enough white teachers but how would I know, as a first-generation college hopeful, how to navigate all the preparation to become greek? I legitimately did not consider greek life until I got on campus. Thankfully I didn't attend a school like Alabama (super informal, no big houses, etc) but if I had, I'd have been SOL. Who would've primed me on tent talk, recs, and what to wear?

Especially since the Internet (and having access to a computer) wasn't something anyone I knew growing up had easy access to. An hour at a time at the library and maybe at lunch time. So tell me, in my largely AA, poor urban neighborhood, would I even have began?

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

It wouldn't look good for KD to seem defensive or too hotsy totsy to take it. I would say at least part of their purpose in all of this is to spark debate. Debate in America also means an abundance of lunacy and simple mean-ness. I'm sure their HQ put on their collective big girl pants in advance to withstand this.

My big girl pants are green and white. I'm extremely proud of the way National KD is taking this on.

KD has some really good professional leadership to take on this issue. Betty Mulkey is both our National Vice President of Kappa Delta and Director of Student Engagement at Northern Kentucky University. She is awesome - smart, sweet, funny, practical and tough. She is exactly the right leader in the right place for this issue. We are so lucky to have her.

I don't know if the purpose is to spark debate. I don't think that National KD cares if it causes debate, though. They know what they see as the right thing to do is and they're going to do it. If that causes debate, so be it.

[Titchou]

OK, folks, let's not get another Alabama thread shut down. Like my daddy used to say to me and my sister when we were young and going out to dinner, "we're going to play a game. Play like you are ladies."

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by tld221

That's what I got out of that anecdote. "Wonderful immigrant man from South American country" was PC for "(possibly) illegal amigo from disadvantaged circumstances had a daughter who beat the odds, so it IS possible! And I knew him!"



Also. As someone who was interested in NPC greek life (well, being greek generally, but initially exposed and sought out NPC first) I couldn't have told you WHERE to find an NPC alumna. I had enough white teachers but how would I know, as a first-generation college hopeful, how to navigate all the preparation to become greek? I legitimately did not consider greek life until I got on campus. Thankfully I didn't attend a school like Alabama (super informal, no big houses, etc) but if I had, I'd have been SOL. Who would've primed me on tent talk, recs, and what to wear?

Especially since the Internet (and having access to a computer) wasn't something anyone I knew growing up had easy access to. An hour at a time at the library and maybe at lunch time. So tell me, in my largely AA, poor urban neighborhood, would I even have began?

That's really interesting. Some of this could come from alumnae associations sponsoring information sessions during orientation days at particular schools.

It could also be addressed by committing to COB. I wonder if that is why KD's press release made a point of talking about COB. I was a little surprised. I don't imagine that in the normal course of things the KD chapter at Alabama does a ton of COB.

[Titchou]

A chapter being eligible to do COB and them actually doing it are two different things.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

A chapter being eligible to do COB and them actually doing it are two different things.

Huh. Do other national organizations allow chapters to choose to COB or not? We mostly don't get to choose whether our chapters are going to COB.

If any chapter isn't at total, National Kappa Delta requires the chapter to participate in COB. It's not a choice. You have have to get special permission from National KD to NOT participate in COB if you aren't at total.

The way chapters handle that requirement is different from chapter to chapter, though, and darn near invisible sometimes.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by KDCat

My big girl pants are green and white. I'm extremely proud of the way National KD is taking this on.

KD has some really good professional leadership to take on this issue. Betty Mulkey is both our National Vice President of Kappa Delta and Director of Student Engagement at Northern Kentucky University. She is awesome - smart, sweet, funny, practical and tough. She is exactly the right leader in the right place for this issue. We are so lucky to have her.

I don't know if the purpose is to spark debate. I don't think that National KD cares if it causes debate, though. They know what they see as the right thing to do is and they're going to do it. If that causes debate, so be it.

Damn - where is the LIKE button for GC? KDCat, what you said times a thousand.

PS AZ-Alpha Xi and I have a close KD friend here in town and I kinda sorta hope she'll be on the team going to Alabama, because she's just awesome. Not that I have any say or anything, because I don't!

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Like my daddy used to say to me and my sister when we were young and going out to dinner, "we're going to play a game. Play like you are ladies."

OMG - I love this.

ETA: Also love KDCat's green & white big girl panties comment. LOL.

FWIW - I applaud KD's efforts to shake up the status quo. Doing nothing certainly hasn't made any changes. I wish the chapter all the best!

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Jhawkie

I also just want to say, there is a tremendous amount of trash talking happening on the public thread regarding this topic on the Kappa Delta HQ Facebook page.... particularly against the woman who was interviewed for this story. I'm a little surprised that they are allowing any of this feedback to remain up there at this point.... interesting.

Either some of it did get deleted or you're reading a different thread than I am. The only person I saw trash talking her was one of her own chapter sisters, who made herself look like a complete jackass by saying Kirkland talked about things that should stay private...and then turned around and did the same thing herself.

I had chapter sisters that drove me nuts, but I absolutely cannot imagine trashing them to all the world, no matter what they did.

[LAblondeGPhi]

Originally Posted by SoCalGirl

The chapter members need to be open and there needs to be a pool of PNMs that can help improve the diversity. If formal rush continues to have few to no non-whites and chapters max out quota/total during formal, they'll continue to be white. More chapters need to actively seek out diversity during COB and Panhel needs to actively attract diversity to the formal rush PNM pool.

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Why?

The campus Panhellenic (at any school) should aim to attract intelligent and involved students. If they're white, black, purple, or yellow, it shouldn't matter.

If the problem was getting AA students interested in NPC sororities, then there would be a whole lot of schools splashed on the front page of the newspaper. That's not the issue here. The issue is that there are AA students who are intelligent and involved, and they were turned down simply because of the color of their skin.

This doesn't mean that Panhellenic has to change how they attract people to participate in recruitment; it means they need to not blatantly discriminate against the people who were interested in the first place.

I don't think it's so cut and dry as "attract the best people and don't discriminate against them". If you're committed to building diversity in your organization (company, board, whatever), then you often have to go out of your way to seek out those individuals, because they're not in your traditional pipeline. Even with the women in this pipeline, the system seems to be lacking any kind of critical mass to support and advocate for those women. You also may have to provide some additional support mechanisms for them because your attrition rates are going to be sky-high if they're not as prepared for the culture, environment or other kinds of commitments.

The way I see it, one of the first steps to stop discriminatory practices is to actually be proactive to attract diversity - otherwise you're probably not going to sufficiently turn around a toxic culture. You're probably also not going to understand the diverse needs of your membership, and then you'll be faced with discrimination by apathy.

I've seen these "diversity best practices" at business school with companies going out of their way to attract and retain women to demanding careers. I saw it in Los Angeles when we were looking to fill City board seats and all the obvious candidates were white males - we had to go find candidates in non-traditional places in order to get that diversity of voices.

Seriously - if you're committed to diversity, it's not nearly enough to just open the doors and say "we don't discriminate".

ETA: OK, I think what I'm trying to say is that if you don't go out of your way to make minority PNMs welcome to the process - and that includes support practices like help with letters of recommendation and special workshops - then those minority PNMs will always be marginalized. Many of the best minority candidates won't even consider NPC recruitment, and current sorority women will think the whole thing is just lip-service anyway.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

I don't think it's so cut and dry as "attract the best people and don't discriminate against them". If you're committed to building diversity in your organization (company, board, whatever), then you often have to go out of your way to seek out those individuals, because they're not in your traditional pipeline. Even with the women in this pipeline, the system seems to be lacking any kind of critical mass to support and advocate for those women. You also may have to provide some additional support mechanisms for them because your attrition rates are going to be sky-high if they're not as prepared for the culture, environment or other kinds of commitments.

The way I see it, one of the first steps to stop discriminatory practices is to actually be proactive to attract diversity - otherwise you're probably not going to sufficiently turn around a toxic culture. You're probably also not going to understand the diverse needs of your membership, and then you'll be faced with discrimination by apathy.

I've seen these "diversity best practices" at business school with companies going out of their way to attract and retain women to demanding careers. I saw it in Los Angeles when we were looking to fill City board seats and all the obvious candidates were white males - we had to go find candidates in non-traditional places in order to get that diversity of voices.

Seriously - if you're committed to diversity, it's not nearly enough to just open the doors and say "we don't discriminate".

ETA: OK, I think what I'm trying to say is that if you don't go out of your way to make minority PNMs welcome to the process - and that includes support practices like help with letters of recommendation and special workshops - then those minority PNMs will always be marginalized. Many of the best minority candidates won't even consider NPC recruitment, and current sorority women will think the whole thing is just lip-service anyway.

Yes. All of this.