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  #166  
Old 06-25-2010, 02:03 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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I don't want anyone to think that all these girls who are cut early on and reluctant to look at other groups are jerks or "entitled". Sometimes they're the sweetest, most positive girls around, girls who would be great members for any group.

However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group. Particularly if this is the oldest daughter and the family has been out of the loop Greekwise (or even in it, for that matter), it can be a huge shock if she's dropped and this girl who has been hearing Alpha Beta stories all her life won't know what to do next, especially if relatives are telling her to drop out and wait for COB. After all, few Panhellenics do any kind of pre-rush parent education; the info goes to the PNMs.

There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.

Again, these girls aren't usually jerks or snots. They're teenagers, they're confused, and they only wanted to be with their friends. They may recognize that their Rho Chi is only another college kid and be unwilling to trust her and FWIW, they shouldn't trust some of them; their training on some campuses is short and worthless and the Rho Chis may be composed of girls who aren't warm and wise but they just wanted to get out of recruiting again.

To groups who have girls who are reluctant new members: the best thing you can do is get them outstanding big sisters. I have seen even girls who were enthusiastic new members at first get uncaring bigs and the NM gets left by the wayside and she finally drops.
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  #167  
Old 06-25-2010, 02:25 PM
Barbie's_Rush Barbie's_Rush is offline
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And sometimes it's the mother that's the "jerk" because she won't allow the daughter to pledge a chapter she really really loves because mom considers it "sub-standard."
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  #168  
Old 06-25-2010, 02:27 PM
Drolefille Drolefille is offline
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As far as family, that's basically what entitlement is. Witness the trolls on this site who pull the "my grandma founded not only the chapter but the entire sorority." That's the extreme, but growing up with "Alpha Beta" stories and assuming you will be an Alpha Beta because of your family is pretty much the definition of entitlement.

Teenagers are shallow, we don't expect them to be super discerning adults. But if the only people "hurt" are PNMs who are unwilling to consider other groups... then we're probably doing pretty good as far as a recruitment system.

But it's less about family legacy or "lets be ABC" and more "If I'm not DEF I'm not going to be anything." And those girls are out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbie's_Rush View Post
And sometimes it's the mother that's the "jerk" because she won't allow the daughter to pledge a chapter she really really loves because mom considers it "sub-standard."
And thus my utter disgust at the tier system (campus wide or nationally ) and the women who perpetuate it.
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  #169  
Old 06-25-2010, 02:35 PM
Barbie's_Rush Barbie's_Rush is offline
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I've mentioned it before in this thread, but I think it's worth mentioning again:

Making quota is very different from retaining new members.
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  #170  
Old 06-25-2010, 02:36 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Oh, some PNMs are entitled little jerks. Others, however, are regular girls who sincerely believe with their parents that they can pledge their legacy chapter; the legacy chapter may not even be one of those that tons of girls are desperately trying to get. They just want to do what the family did. When they don't have that option, they honestly don't know what to do next and the RC may or may not be able to guide them wisely.

What violetpretty said is true, though, about guys pretty much determining the tier levels. I have told many alums what she said in the past day or so and they agreed that she hit the nail on the head.
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  #171  
Old 06-25-2010, 02:43 PM
KSUViolet06 KSUViolet06 is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
I don't want anyone to think that all these girls who are cut early on and reluctant to look at other groups are jerks or "entitled". Sometimes they're the sweetest, most positive girls around, girls who would be great members for any group.

However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group. Particularly if this is the oldest daughter and the family has been out of the loop Greekwise (or even in it, for that matter), it can be a huge shock if she's dropped and this girl who has been hearing Alpha Beta stories all her life won't know what to do next, especially if relatives are telling her to drop out and wait for COB. After all, few Panhellenics do any kind of pre-rush parent education; the info goes to the PNMs.

There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.

Again, these girls aren't usually jerks or snots. They're teenagers, they're confused, and they only wanted to be with their friends. They may recognize that their Rho Chi is only another college kid and be unwilling to trust her and FWIW, they shouldn't trust some of them; their training on some campuses is short and worthless and the Rho Chis may be composed of girls who aren't warm and wise but they just wanted to get out of recruiting again.

To groups who have girls who are reluctant new members: the best thing you can do is get them outstanding big sisters. I have seen even girls who were enthusiastic new members at first get uncaring bigs and the NM gets left by the wayside and she finally drops.
*And of course "drop out and wait for COB" is really bad advice if we're talking competitive school. If they're cutting legacies during recruitment, I can guess that they probably will be full after formal and probably never COB.

*This entire post is exactly why I think it is SO important for moms of legacy daughters to be educated on how things work NOW. Back in 1978 when Alpha Beta Mom rushed, every legacy got a bid. Today, not so much. PNM is let down when she is cut because she (like alot of naive freshmen) believed Mom when she said she was guaranteed a bid.

*And DOUBLE AGREE on the Big Sister part. The Triangle ran an article on the Big Sister relationship a year or so ago. Among other things, it mentioned the importance of the role in retention of NMs. It is SO MUCH more than giving her the best gifts or making her the cutest shirts.
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  #172  
Old 06-25-2010, 03:06 PM
Drolefille Drolefille is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
Oh, some PNMs are entitled little jerks. Others, however, are regular girls who sincerely believe with their parents that they can pledge their legacy chapter; the legacy chapter may not even be one of those that tons of girls are desperately trying to get. They just want to do what the family did. When they don't have that option, they honestly don't know what to do next and the RC may or may not be able to guide them wisely.

What violetpretty said is true, though, about guys pretty much determining the tier levels. I have told many alums what she said in the past day or so and they agreed that she hit the nail on the head.
Sure, but they're still entitled, even if they're not over the top about it. I'd say most manage to get over the disappointment and move forward.

Even if, and it's a big if in my opinion, guys "determine" the tiers, the women perpetuate it, particularly when it "benefits" their chapter. And guys don't really have a hand in the national "tier system" nor do they explain the mothers we get on here who influence, push, or outright demand that their daughters not join a particular chapter. (or man the "send pics so I know our chapter at ABC University is worth my daughter joining" people.)

We can't just push it off on the guys and act like we don't have anything to do with it. It's harmful for the Greek system and should be something that we work on with PNMs and chapters alike.
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  #173  
Old 06-25-2010, 03:23 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Though I'm very involved in the recruitments of many campuses these days, I don't know if the tiers (yeah, yeah some people hate them but they're still perceived) exist that existed years ago. At Auburn, for instance, many people used to look down on the "quad sororities" because they were newer groups and thus located in the older and worse dorms. Then 30 years ago, everyone moved up to the Hill and now for a year, they've all had more or less equal new housing. Also, determining of quota is now done right before prefs (rather than after second parties) so the days of some groups taking huge pledge classes and the rest taking much smaller ones are past and that had a lot to do with perceptions too.

RFM has much to do with changing perceptions too. Now that most sororities on many competitive campuses are taking quota, no one can say, "The Mu Mus only got 50 and the rest of us got 70 so they stink." Even the most naive of rushees back in the day could look around and see that her pledge class was noticeably smaller than the others and begin to wonder if she'd made the right decision. And others in her pledge class were wondering too and before you knew it, half the pledge class was gone.

It would be great if we could educate parents about the changing world of NPC recruitment but other than some lip service paid to "What is a Legacy?" in the occasional parent brochure and on sorority websites, it's not happening and I don't see how we'd reach most parents anyway.
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  #174  
Old 06-25-2010, 03:40 PM
Splash Splash is offline
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Originally Posted by Drolefille View Post
The chapter's only going to be able to take quota either way. Odds are they'll still be cut, just sooner rather than before pref. And if you have such a high interest, it's not always that the PNM wasn't "on" enough. GPA below a certain point? Not gonna get invited back even if you're Miss Amazing.

I think it says a lot more about how PNMs think that they are, individually, perfect for XYZ (and unwilling to consider that they could possibly be a PQR)

So yes, in some ways the PNMs could lose out if they have a closed mind. But as has been pointed out, few people who get those 'less desirable*' bids say "I wish I hadn't stuck it out" while far more say "I wish I hadn't depledged."

*to the individual PNM only.
Yes, there are PNM's who think they belong in a certain chapter.
Yes, PNM's can lose out by having a closed mind.
Yes, few who get the less desirable chapter regret joining.

The chapter will only be able to take quote either way. This applies to every group of girls who goes to every round. I am speaking about qualified PNM's who get cut due to high release figures that having been given another chance could have won the sorority over. You say they'll be cut anyway. If they're qualified, giving them an extra chance to win the sorority over could only help their chances.
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  #175  
Old 06-25-2010, 03:56 PM
Drolefille Drolefille is offline
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Originally Posted by Splash View Post
Yes, there are PNM's who think they belong in a certain chapter.
Yes, PNM's can lose out by having a closed mind.
Yes, few who get the less desirable chapter regret joining.

The chapter will only be able to take quote either way. This applies to every group of girls who goes to every round. I am speaking about qualified PNM's who get cut due to high release figures that having been given another chance could have won the sorority over. You say they'll be cut anyway. If they're qualified, giving them an extra chance to win the sorority over could only help their chances.
But it's the sorority that decided that 100 other PNMs were more qualified. It's the same with a job interview or a college application.

If a campus decides to add an extra non-cutting round to recruitment so everyone gets to meet at least twice before the cutting starts, that's one thing. But there's nothing more special or qualified about any one girl who gets cut from ABC than another girl. Barring being dropped for grade reasons, shouldn't you argue that every girl should get to meet again? Because every girl will think she deserves another shot.

And isn't that why RFM was introduced? To help curb any unrealistic expectations that ABC really wants YOU when they just kind of like you and really want 50 other girls instead. And to make sure that "YOU" get to look at as many other sororities as possible instead of listing going back to ABC every round when you're not going to be bid.

/General "yous" all around.
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  #176  
Old 06-25-2010, 04:04 PM
AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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That's the problem with all of these "buts". They are all such small percentages that you just can't account for them when you are dealing with such large numbers of PNMs. So a girl might have gotten Tier 1 group to like her enough to offer a bid if she could have held on to party 3 in the old system, but that extra chance would have meant that 25 other women where led on for three parties and dropped groups that would have given them a bid just so that one girl could get her dream bid. The greater good says you let all 26 get released so that they all find spots in "lesser" chapters.
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  #177  
Old 06-25-2010, 04:18 PM
Barbie's_Rush Barbie's_Rush is offline
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It doesn't matter if you make quota if only half your new members show up to bid day. The other new members see that. They also see how upset some of their new sisters are to be there on bid day when they do show up. The perception is always going to be there on competitive campuses with highly entrenched tier systems.

If you are an alumna who helps out with recruitment, thank you. But please understand that it doesn't make you an expert on what's actually happening at parties and in selection. The actives are the ones dealing with a lot of things and behaviors from pnms and their families that alumna are completely insulated from. The entitled princess pnm is very much alive and well.
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  #178  
Old 06-25-2010, 05:33 PM
AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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Originally Posted by Barbie's_Rush View Post
It doesn't matter if you make quota if only half your new members show up to bid day. The other new members see that. They also see how upset some of their new sisters are to be there on bid day when they do show up. The perception is always going to be there on competitive campuses with highly entrenched tier systems.

If you are an alumna who helps out with recruitment, thank you. But please understand that it doesn't make you an expert on what's actually happening at parties and in selection. The actives are the ones dealing with a lot of things and behaviors from pnms and their families that alumna are completely insulated from. The entitled princess pnm is very much alive and well.

I don't know who that's directed at, but I certainly do agree that there are lots of entitled princesses floating around. I also think that saying that RFM doesn't help anyone is overstating things too. On HIGHLY competitive campuses, you may have chapters who make quota but only half of the girls show up, but I venture to say that that is NOT the norm. I think that there are many weaker chapters out there that have really benefitted from this system. From my experience, though, the middle of the road chapters benefit the most from RFM with the largest classes. At Towson, which has a moderately competitive recrutement, the most "popular" groups have a harder time making quota because they cut those margins so close and fight for the same women, but the more inclusive groups are raking in large numbers of women who STAY. Another example of how every school is different so trying to make a generalized statement of the success of RFM is difficult.
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  #179  
Old 06-25-2010, 06:09 PM
Barbie's_Rush Barbie's_Rush is offline
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Originally Posted by AOII Angel View Post
I don't know who that's directed at, but I certainly do agree that there are lots of entitled princesses floating around. I also think that saying that RFM doesn't help anyone is overstating things too. On HIGHLY competitive campuses, you may have chapters who make quota but only half of the girls show up, but I venture to say that that is NOT the norm. I think that there are many weaker chapters out there that have really benefitted from this system. From my experience, though, the middle of the road chapters benefit the most from RFM with the largest classes. At Towson, which has a moderately competitive recrutement, the most "popular" groups have a harder time making quota because they cut those margins so close and fight for the same women, but the more inclusive groups are raking in large numbers of women who STAY. Another example of how every school is different so trying to make a generalized statement of the success of RFM is difficult.
It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just that there seems to be a bit of disbelief about entitled pnms coming from some alumna, and I can tell you that being on the front lines as an active is a very different experience. I've spoken extensively about our experiences with many of my sorority member relatives who represent several generations of sisters at many of the same chapters. The attitudes and behaviors we are seeing now (from pnms and families) are very different than even a decade ago. This is my generation and yes, even I can step back and see some things are seriously twisted.

I didn't say RFM doesn't work. I just don't think it's the pancea so many want to think it is. It probably works better at some schools than others.

All I know is what I am familiar with, which is highly competitive schools with very entrenched tier systems. From my perspective, RFM helps those "middle of the road" groups the most because they get to see more women who might have dropped them quickly had they been held on for additional rounds by "top" chapters. The top groups will always get who they want, even when they are fighting it out for the same "most desireable" pnms. That's really the way things have always been. If a top group doesn't make quota, it's so easy to snap to quota out of the pretty perfect princesses who dropped out of recruitment when they were dropped from the top groups. Sadly, that group of pnms is usually full of good candidates, so if you're pulling from them for your last few bids it's not a huge issue. I just don't think RFM does that much for struggling chapters, at least at campuses where someone would rather not be Greek at all than wear the letters ABC. I can't even dream of how demoralizing it would be to not have a large portion of your new members show up for bid day and to watch your new member class progressively dwindle through the weeks leading up to initiation.

Last edited by Barbie's_Rush; 06-25-2010 at 06:12 PM.
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  #180  
Old 06-25-2010, 06:13 PM
AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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I just don't think RFM does that much for struggling chapters, at least at campuses where someone would rather not be Greek at all than wear the letters ABC. I can't even dream of how demoralizing it would be to not have a large portion of your new members show up for bid day and to watch your new member class progressively dwindle through the weeks leading up to initiation.
I agree, but I don't know what else you can do to change that. RFM may have to be changed for those schools. Then again, does it hurt anymore to have a pledge class of 50 with only 20 showing up on bid day or a pledge class of 20 on bid day when quota is 50? I guess in the end with reaching quota, there is still the possibility that some of the girls may show up. Either way you still end up with 20.

From someone experienced with the old system, the weak chapter on campus doesn't feel so hot when you pick up 10 people on bid day when quota is 35, either. It hurts no matter how you work the system. I had at least three women in my Rho Chi group that got cut from all the groups on campus but this group, and I talked them all into giving that group a chance. Crying PNMs on Day 3 of recruitment right before Prefs are tough, especially since they really don't have anymore time to really get to know their only remaining chapter.

BTW, I think that chapter might have survived with a little help from RFM.
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