If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[33girl]

This is yet another example (MC outlined it very well) of Guys And Girls Are Different. Being a girl, I'm not about to tell a guy what works or doesn't work for his fraternity.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

To address what KansasCity said that I bolded, I'm not sure that males and females are the same in this regard. We talk about building brotherhood and bonding, and I think that is very important. But there is an equally important component, maybe more so for males, that I think often is not addressed. That second component is rite of passage.

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

Globally and historically, rites of passage typically involve what might be termed testing, trial, or ordeal. That is, prior to actual initiation into manhood, the initiate must prove himself and his worth (to himself and to the men he wishes to join) by undergoing and passing one or more trials or tests. To be quite honest, I think there is something inbred in males wanting and needing to prove themselves in this way. Rituals (and here I am using the term broadly) that succeed for boys understand this and tap into this primal need. An example: initiation into the Order of the Arrow, a camping brotherhood for Boy Scouts, is preceeded by a weekend-long "Ordeal" that involves no talking, manual labor in a service project (with others, which can be challenging with no talking), camping alone in the woods, meager meals, and the like. Upon completion and admission to the initiation ceremony, a boy feels like he has really accomplished something, proven himself and earned his place among the initiated. I know I did; I still think of Ordeal weekend as a pivotal weekend of my youth.

Quite simply I think, where hazing "works" (if that is the right word), it is when it taps into this primal desire to be tested and proved worthy, which in turn engenders loyalty to the group one has been found worthy to join and promotes bonding among those tested together. When potential initiates go through "testing" together and help each other get through it, then they learn that they can count on each other no matter what.

So, what makes hazing "work" (again, if that is the right word) is that it satisfies the need to be tested and proven worthy, and that in the process it teaches potential initiates to rely on each other and help each other in overcoming any trials.

Again, I do not advocate hazing. The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals and satisfy this need to be tested and proven worthy in a way that doesn't involve hazing.

I can agree with the fact that males and females are different. I do, however, believe that they can be taught the same things without hazing. I know that there are "rites of passage" that men sometimes feel they need to overcome. But why can't it be done in a constructive way? And why can't pledges and brothers alike participate in these activities?

For example: I was on a swim team for years. Eventually, they started having a retreat once a year. One time, we decided to go camping (in Vermont in January!). The catch: We were split randomly into groups of 3. We were given a map, a compass, and a walkie. On the map were 4 marked locations (firewood, tents, water, campsite). Each group had to hike, find each location, and bring each item to the campsite. There were 6 large logs of firewood on a sled, 2 tents, and a large container of water. With only 3 people in each group, it was probably one of the most challenging things that I've done. By the end (6 hours later) groups were helping each other, and everyone felt like they accomplished something (together).

If you're going to build brotherhood, why are you excluding the BROTHERS from these activities? I don't see why the few weeks of pledging is the only time that people are challenged. If you're doing something constructive, have everyone participate. THAT'S how you build a unified fraternity. Not by exerting your "power" over someone else by having them do pushups.

Originally Posted by Kansas City

mls2008 - Are you sure that you joined a Greek organization and not the army?

I can understand a need for what you may call non-harmful hazing for certain organizations (sports teams, military, etc.) because they serve the organizational standards of having a physically strong body but to my limited knowledge, most recognized Greek organizations prefer to focus on values outside of a member's physical ability.

Exactly. My brother is a good-looking kid, who's on the Dean's List, who works hard, and who would probably give you the shirt off his back if you needed it. He didn't play football cuz he probably would have been crushed. He's just not built for it. Are you telling me you'd turn him away because he couldn't do 50 pushups while you screamed in his face?

I find it entertaining that some fraternity chapters will hold rush events, accept new members (or pledges) based on their grades and how they get along with the rest of the brothers... but then during pledging, they yell at them, segregate them, and the only thing that determines whether they'll become a brother is if they can clean the house, do pushups, and get bitched at without quitting. Makes sense.

[KSUViolet06]

Also, consider the fact that you could haze the crap out of a kid, then he could get initiated, and then never come around and just be a half-assed brother. What was the point of all of your pushups, yelling, and screaming?

I know plenty of guys who took some crap during pledging, but got initiated and did the bare minimum of participation. It proves that hazing does not = more involved brothers who care more about the fraternity.

[ECUJacob]

Ok...assuming you do use the point system right? How does that show any type of brotherhood. That just means that you have time to give to the organization.

All of the point sections pertain directly to personal development and increasing maturity appropriate for one's age. Five of the nine sections involve direct interaction with brothers and their fellow pledges. While doing those five items (community service, intramurals, chapter functions, etc.), brotherly bonds are formed and strengthened.

...why should I trust or treat this person any differently then anyone I could've met in any random club?

The same question could be asked of you regarding someone you've yelled at and scared into doing any sort of physical activity. When did brotherhood change from confidence, trustworthiness, and support to physical fitness, servitude, and displays of (non-existent) superiority? From my viewpoint, someone who fulfills all of the obligations in my OP are the prime example of what it means to be a good brother.

These 2 deaths aren't b/c of pushups. One is b/c of water intoxication and one is b/c he was basically beaten to death.

You're right. However, please note that the water intoxication took place while the pledges were doing physical activities (push ups). But I wasn't addressing that issue. I was proving your statement wrong from the original post:

However, out of the hundreds of news articles I've read and anti-hazing sites I've visited, I do not recall any that had someone dying b/c he/she was doing pushups/situps/running etc. They were all either drinking or being beaten to death.

The few examples I provided easily proved otherwise. Members don't only die from over-intoxication or accidents. At times, they suffer injuries (or death) at the hands of their "brothers".

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I can agree with the fact that males and females are different. I do, however, believe that they can be taught the same things without hazing.

I do too. I hope I made that clear. I'm simply saying that I think the successful alternatives, for males at least, don't ignore some of the reasons hazing occurs to begin with.

I know that there are "rites of passage" that men sometimes feel they need to overcome. But why can't it be done in a constructive way? And why can't pledges and brothers alike participate in these activities? . . . If you're going to build brotherhood, why are you excluding the BROTHERS from these activities? I don't see why the few weeks of pledging is the only time that people are challenged. If you're doing something constructive, have everyone participate.

At the risk of taking this too far off, I think that maybe this is a situation where, while recognizing that males and females are different, you're not recognizing how. Aside from what I said earlier about "proving themselves" (and let's face it -- for lots of males, rightly or wrongly, that means primarily proving themselves physically), this gets at a different conversation we've had numerous times here at GC. Most fraternities with which I'm familiar treat pledges (or whatever term they use) differently from brothers. It's not like the NPC, where new members are treated in many if not most respects like sisters. In my experience, fraternities typically do not consider a pledge to be a brother until, toward the end of the pledge period, the chapter votes to initiate him and then in fact does initiate him.

This doesn't mean that a good chapter isn't going to provide ample opportunity for pledges and brothers to do things together. But in most fraternities, they're not likely to act like a pledge is a brother either.

Kevin is right -- I think most fraternities have tried to create national programs that work to the same end in a manner consistant with the fraternity's ethos/culture.

And 33girl is right -- fraternities are from Mars, sororities are from Venus.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

To address what KansasCity said that I bolded, I'm not sure that males and females are the same in this regard. We talk about building brotherhood and bonding, and I think that is very important. But there is an equally important component, maybe more so for males, that I think often is not addressed. That second component is rite of passage.

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

Globally and historically, rites of passage typically involve what might be termed testing, trial, or ordeal. That is, prior to actual initiation into manhood, the initiate must prove himself and his worth (to himself and to the men he wishes to join) by undergoing and passing one or more trials or tests. To be quite honest, I think there is something inbred in males wanting and needing to prove themselves in this way. Rituals (and here I am using the term broadly) that succeed for boys understand this and tap into this primal need. An example: initiation into the Order of the Arrow, a camping brotherhood for Boy Scouts, is preceeded by a weekend-long "Ordeal" that involves no talking, manual labor in a service project (with others, which can be challenging with no talking), camping alone in the woods, meager meals, and the like. Upon completion and admission to the initiation ceremony, a boy feels like he has really accomplished something, proven himself and earned his place among the initiated. I know I did; I still think of Ordeal weekend as a pivotal weekend of my youth.

Quite simply I think, where hazing "works" (if that is the right word), it is when it taps into this primal desire to be tested and proved worthy, which in turn engenders loyalty to the group one has been found worthy to join and promotes bonding among those tested together. When potential initiates go through "testing" together and help each other get through it, then they learn that they can count on each other no matter what.

So, what makes hazing "work" (again, if that is the right word) is that it satisfies the need to be tested and proven worthy, and that in the process it teaches potential initiates to rely on each other and help each other in overcoming any trials.

Again, I do not advocate hazing. The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals and satisfy this need to be tested and proven worthy in a way that doesn't involve hazing.

As with most things, I don't think this is about "male or female" at all.

Certain practices existed for reasons of earning one's place and bonding. It's simply the case that these practices were taken to the extreme and the concept of "hazing" has become synonymous with "pledging" and other rites of passage.

Rites of passage are extremely important to both males and females. There are rites of passage in many if not most voluntary and involuntary memberships. The disagreement is regarding which rites of passage are deemed "hazing." This disagreement is not along gender lines, as far as I'm concerned.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by LXAAlum

Rule #1: If you couldn't invite your parents, or the parents of the potential new member to witness what is going on, then it is hazing.

Rule #2: If there is any confusion, see Rule #1.

Imagine college students only doing things that they could do in front of their parents.

Imagine organizations only engaging in practices that can be witnessed by nonmembers.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

To DrPhil's disappointment, I'm going to follow-up on this boy/girl discrepancy.

MysticCat, are you suggesting (by the bolded (emphasis mine)) that boys have fewer rites of passage than girls, or that boys need the rites moreso than girls? The first time I read your post, I thought you meant the former (that boys have fewer RoP than girls), but now I'm thinking you meant the latter. I don't know that it matters either way, but I find it interesting that you differentiate between the genders.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

As with most things, I don't think this is about "male or female" at all.

. . .

Rites of passage are extremely important to both males and females. There are rites of passage in many if not most voluntary and involuntary memberships. The disagreement is regarding which rites of passage are deemed "hazing." This disagreement is not along gender lines, as far as I'm concerned.

I'd agree with a lot of what you say. My invocation of gender is more about such rites being different, not about whether it's hazing for females but not hazing for males or the like.

Originally Posted by SydneyK

To DrPhil's disappointment, I'm going to follow-up on this boy/girl discrepancy.

MysticCat, are you suggesting (by the bolded (emphasis mine)) that boys have fewer rites of passage than girls, or that boys need the rites moreso than girls? The first time I read your post, I thought you meant the former (that boys have fewer RoP than girls), but now I'm thinking you meant the latter. I don't know that it matters either way, but I find it interesting that you differentiate between the genders.

With the caveat that I was typing of the top of my head, without consulting a study, I think I was really thinking more the former, although I know I have read articles suggesting both. And maybe I focused on males because I am one and that's what I'm familiar with.

Sure, there are some rites of passages: Bar/Bat Mitzvahs, Quinceañeras, confirmations, even Deb Balls. But many of these occur at an early enough age (13 or earlier-15) that they don't really function as marking the transition to adulthood, even if they say they do. Of course, fraternity/sorority initiation doesn't so much mark entrance to adulthood as acceptance into a brotherhood/sisterhood. But I think such an initiation carries some significance for making the new member a better man or woman.

Is this making any sense?

[msl2008]

Ok...maybe I forgot to post what I meant when I said physical punishments. There's just too much stuff to cover it all in a few posts. But anyway, I am not referring to you yourself doing pushups to prove something. That's why fraternities have pledge classes right? You're supposed to bond and build relationships with your pledge class, not yourself. It's supposed to be a teamwork building experience.

So instead of you doing something for yourself, you have to work as a team. A team is only as strong as their weakest link. So say the Pledge Educator gives an assignment ie learn the chapter's history and you will have a test in one week. One week comes along and they take a paper test and just say one guy fails. Ok, big whoop right? maybe i'll get kicked out of pledging or whatnot. but if instead of a paper test you line them up and ask them, you get the same result. the person who doesn't know the info will still not know the info. however, this time instead of him being in trouble, the PE tells his pledge brother to drop and give him 20 pushups. this goes down and down the line. you might be willing to take blame if you messed up yourself and don't see a point. but wouldn't you feel different if someone else was doing something for YOUR mistake? i know i sure as hell would feel bad.

there a lot of sayings that people only reach 10% of their potential or something like that and i believe it's true. how can you truly achieve anything great without pushing yourself? if you're just showered with positive reinforcement 24/7, you won't ever think there's anything wrong or anything you can do better and you become less humble b/c the only thing people say to you are good things.

now for all those people who say pledging gets out of hand. i realize this and totally accept it. please don't bring this into the equation in addition to the beatings or water torture.

but anyway, if pledging was centered around things such as the one i posted don't you think they could have a possibility of working? they work in sports and the army don't they? but of course the difference there is that those are run by adults and college kids could never do that. but personally i don't think hazing is ever going to be eliminated no matter what. if it were that easy, it would be that easy to eliminate gangs too wouldn't it? but that's another topic.

and for the ppl who say that hazing is against the law, obviously everyone knows that. but lots of things are against the law that people do and the government can't do anything about till it's too late. so let's be realistic here.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

and for the ppl who say that hazing is against the law, obviously everyone knows that. but lots of things are against the law that people do and the government can't do anything about till it's too late. so let's be realistic here.

So it's illegal, but people still do it, so we should keep doing it because it's not like anyone's going to do anything about it?

Riiight.

[VandalSquirrel]

I really dislike the comparison of "well the military does it for bonding and training" as these are two completely different groups. One you can get shot at, and the other one you're doing shots.

I'm still at a loss at how treating people like crap and yelling at them makes them better members. I'd rather someone have the testicles or ovaries to stand up to that nonsense. I've asked it before and I'll ask it again, why pledge people who you have to humiliate, why not pledge people who already have the qualities you look for?

[msl2008]

for ksuviolet, have you ever broken a law? drinking b4 21 or smoking weed? isn't this the same concept? i mean if it's not going to stop, might as well try to make it safer so people don't die right?

vandalsquirrel...where do you get the treating people like crap argument? yelling at them is to push them harder. and in regards to pledging people who already have the qualities you look for, that is very hard. lots of times people put on a front or exaggerate who they are to look good for other people. only under pressure do people's real personalities come out. and i agree that military and greeks are two different groups. but building a bond can be the same can't it? isn't that what greeks try to do, build brotherhood? and who better to model that after then the military?

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

for ksuviolet, have you ever broken a law? drinking b4 21 or smoking weed? isn't this the same concept? i mean if it's not going to stop, might as well try to make it safer so people don't die right?

No.

and

No.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by msl2008

for ksuviolet, have you ever broken a law? drinking b4 21 or smoking weed? isn't this the same concept? i mean if it's not going to stop, might as well try to make it safer so people don't die right?

vandalsquirrel...where do you get the treating people like crap argument? yelling at them is to push them harder. and in regards to pledging people who already have the qualities you look for, that is very hard. lots of times people put on a front or exaggerate who they are to look good for other people. only under pressure do people's real personalities come out. and i agree that military and greeks are two different groups. but building a bond can be the same can't it? isn't that what greeks try to do, build brotherhood? and who better to model that after then the military?

Yelling at people and getting in their face, instead of treating them like adults or human beings with respect = treating them like crap to me.

Under pressure people's real personalities do not always come out. Maybe it is because I studied psychology and sociology in college, but that isn't true. If I am under pressure because I have finals and my father died, that isn't my true personality, it is a situation, and one that I can't control. Someone acting out "Dazed and Confused" covering me in condiments and sending me through a car wash, and treating me poorly is something I can control, and under pressure I'd get up and walk away because I have self worth and self esteem. Those are two qualities I want in my sisters, and I wouldn't want sisters who a) treat others that way or b) let themselves be treated that way.