Is this legal? Deactivated one NPC, now part of a new NPC.

[Buttonz]

Originally Posted by AChiOhSnap

I believe you had to be over 17 either due to local panhel rules or because there was a chapter (Chi O maybe?) in which you had to be 17+ to join.

Maybe it was over 18 for liability reasons? I don't remember, I was almost 19 so it was a moot point for me either way.

I know this is off topic but this is intresting to me...

So if you had to be 18+ (let's just say) to go through recruitment at your school, and if you had formal in the fall that would mean freshman like myself wouldn't have been able to go through formal...in a competitive school that would have hurt my chances of getting a bid....right?

Is that fair?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AChiOhSnap

Question...

Why wouldn't a database that simply had full names, birthdates, and affiliations not work? Even if a woman has a relatively common name, here's how it would work.

Jessica Marie Smith was a member of ABC at East Coast University. She transfers to West Coast University, goes through recruitment, and receives a bid to XYZ.

Especially since she's a transfer, someone from XYZ would check the national NPC database. Forty hits for Jessica Marie Smith come up, but only two initiated at ECU. One Jessica was born 7/8/1971 -- so it's obviously not her -- and another Jessica was born 2/27/1988. Voila, a name and birthday match. A quick phone call to the chapter at ECU or ABC headquarters confirms this girl's identity.

I don't know about everyone else, but I had to verify my identity (via driver's license or school ID which had my legal name and birthday on it) before I could sign up for recruitment because of age restrictions.

I really think this would work, and it would be as simple as a sorority updating their own member databases. It seems relatively easy enough. I'm sure mistakes would be made and if a girl changed her legal name from the time she was in one GLO before she rushed another it might make things sticky, but that seems unlikely. If a PNM is so psycho that she'd take great measures to hide her legal identity in order to cheat the system, my guess is she wouldn't last very long in a sorority anyway.

Sounds good to me.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by PsychTau2

Ya'll haven't even mentioned calling the Greek Advisor at the other campus.

Example: Jessica Marie Smith fills out a recruitment application and notes that she is a transfer student (because we have to check GPAs) from East Coast University. I shoot an email over to ECU's Greek Advisor and ask them to check their roster database for her name. If a Jessica Marie Smith shows up, we do some more investigative work.

Of course, this is assuming that Greek Advisors keep their roster information in easily searchable databases, which I think most do now in order to run GPA reports easier. Instead of calling 10 NPC chapters at ECU, I call (or email) one person.

Sure, bigger universities might see this as too time consuming, but it's up to each campus Panhellenic to decide how concerned they want to become with this issue. If a chapter member is suspicious about someone, they can bring it up with the Greek advisor.

PsychTau

Yep. I agree. The greek life office would be the first place that I would call. I would think they would have lists of members, and if it became a priority, then they certainly could. If people were worried about who was really asking for the info., the calls could be from one school official to another, rather than chapter to greek life office.

[NutBrnHair]

Originally Posted by AChiOhSnap

I believe you had to be over 17 either due to local panhel rules or because there was a chapter (Chi O maybe?) in which you had to be 17+ to join.

Nope...not us.

[NutBrnHair]

Seems to me that on most campuses, it's difficult enough to get the information from the Greek Life office on the students going through recruitment at the school, much less trying to field questions from other universities about transfer students!!!

This debate is silly to me -- I just don't think it's a widespread problem.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by NutBrnHair

Seems to me that on most campuses, it's difficult enough to get the information from the Greek Life office on the students going through recruitment at the school, much less trying to field questions from other universities about transfer students!!!

This debate is silly to me -- I just don't think it's a widespread problem.

I don't think it's a widespread problem either, but I think that unfortunately when some people learn that the chances of getting caught are low, it could become more common.

I'll admit I've had very limited contact with Greek Life offices. You may be right that they aren’t forthcoming with info.

But since the number of transfers in any new member class is often very small, it's probably not insurmountable to check into a girl's background. Calling greek life, calling chapters, calling the person who wrote a rec for the girl. If you really care, it probably can be accomplished.

[AGDee]

I don't think the chances of getting caught are that low. It's a smaller world than most think. Someone who meets Susie at State U is going to know someone that Susie knew at U of State. Or, Susie is going to slip eventually.

The schools I'm used to working with often have transfer students. It seems like kids school hop these days.. from Michigan State to Michigan, from Central Michigan to Michigan State, on and on. A lot of people don't choose the right college for them from the start.

We can't get grades from a lot of schools in my area. Some of the schools in my area don't recognize the Greeks as student organizations. Trying to get contact phone numbers for all the chapters at a school like Eastern Michigan or Wayne Statewould be really hard, but people transfer from those two schools to other schools often.

I've been an Alpha Gam for 23 years now and have been involved on the local and regional level for 19 of those years and have never had a chapter have this happen.

Again, with the database thing, you still have to someone who can add all their members to an NPC database. That's a lot of entries in a year. And, all 26 NPCs would have to have at least one person authorized to add that data. Who would be authorized to look up that data? An advisor? A Collegian? Where would it be stored? How would they access it? How do you keep it secure? It just doesn't seem feasible to me.

We have other issues that are much more serious upon which we need to be focusing our very limited resources, in my opinion.

[UGAalum94]

Edited: Sorry, I posted before I saw AGDee's note.


On an additional logistically note, if you did start the all NPC database, it wouldn't really have to be retroactive very far, which was an earlier concern. There'd be a substantial benefit even if one started with 2007 initiates and simply went forward. Within a few years, you'd have almost everyone likely to attempt it, unless there's a big issue with serial AIers which we've yet to discuss.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I don't think the chances of getting caught are that low. It's a smaller world than most think. Someone who meets Susie at State U is going to know someone that Susie knew at U of State. Or, Susie is going to slip eventually.

The schools I'm used to working with often have transfer students. It seems like kids school hop these days.. from Michigan State to Michigan, from Central Michigan to Michigan State, on and on. A lot of people don't choose the right college for them from the start.

We can't get grades from a lot of schools in my area. Some of the schools in my area don't recognize the Greeks as student organizations. Trying to get contact phone numbers for all the chapters at a school like Eastern Michigan or Wayne Statewould be really hard, but people transfer from those two schools to other schools often.

I've been an Alpha Gam for 23 years now and have been involved on the local and regional level for 19 of those years and have never had a chapter have this happen.

Again, with the database thing, you still have to someone who can add all their members to an NPC database. That's a lot of entries in a year. And, all 26 NPCs would have to have at least one person authorized to add that data. Who would be authorized to look up that data? An advisor? A Collegian? Where would it be stored? How would they access it? How do you keep it secure? It just doesn't seem feasible to me.

We have other issues that are much more serious upon which we need to be focusing our very limited resources, in my opinion.

It probably is a really different issue at campuses where a lot of non-freshman rush. What percentage of a new member class would you say are transfers where you are AGDee?

[AGDee]

I don't know for sure, because we don't even keep those statistics. We just have stats on class level in the reports that I get from chapters. I'm not even sure that the members know that when someone goes through recruitment whether they are a transfer or not. I would imagine it would come up eventually during their new member period. I can say that it's common for chapters to recruit sophomores and juniors up north here though. I also know that at 3 campuses in Michigan, I've been working very hard to get advisors to get GPAs from the advisors of other chapters on campus so that we can get scholarship ranks for our chapters. This finally happened at Wayne State this year, after at least 6 years of trying. Trying to get info about greek membership at other universities up here would be a real challenge.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I don't know for sure, because we don't even keep those statistics. We just have stats on class level in the reports that I get from chapters. I'm not even sure that the members know that when someone goes through recruitment whether they are a transfer or not. I would imagine it would come up eventually during their new member period. I can say that it's common for chapters to recruit sophomores and juniors up north here though. I also know that at 3 campuses in Michigan, I've been working very hard to get advisors to get GPAs from the advisors of other chapters on campus so that we can get scholarship ranks for our chapters. This finally happened at Wayne State this year, after at least 6 years of trying. Trying to get info about greek membership at other universities up here would be a real challenge.

It's interesting because some campuses publish the grade rankings on websites. (Yes, most that I've looked at are southern, but not all). Is it a difference in the university's attitude about student privacy, or is the greek culture itself that different, do you think? Can you speculate based on the campuses you know that do compile rankings and those that don't?

Again, I have no idea how big a problem joining an additional group is, but I think it'd be helpful if chapters knew how they could check. (Even when as you said, they hear from a friend at another campus, how would they verify the rumor?) Being able to say, "this is how we check" would seem like a deterrent to me.

[susan314]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

It's interesting because some campuses publish the grade rankings on websites. (Yes, most that I've looked at are southern, but not all). Is it a difference in the university's attitude about student privacy, or is the greek culture itself that different, do you think? Can you speculate based on the campuses you know that do compile rankings and those that don't?

I know that at Michigan State, the chapters get a printout from the university showing the GPA of each individual chapter member. (At least, they did when I was there back in the 90s, and I'd assume they do the same now.)

Bowling Green State University also gives such a printout to the chapter (they even sent me one as the advisor), and they also compile a list of chapter averages so that you know where you rank.

Those are the only 2 schools here "up north" that I have firsthand knowledge of, so I can't comment on any others. Guess I just assumed that all universities provided the info.

[gphiangel624]

Originally Posted by susan314

I know that at Michigan State, the chapters get a printout from the university showing the GPA of each individual chapter member. (At least, they did when I was there back in the 90s, and I'd assume they do the same now.)

Those are the only 2 schools here "up north" that I have firsthand knowledge of, so I can't comment on any others. Guess I just assumed that all universities provided the info.

Many universities provide academic reports for their Greek orgs. Oftentimes they will provide a detailed report to a chapter officer (President or Academics chair) and sometimes to an advisor, and national if requested (some schools just send it). The chapter averages are typically public information because it is virtually impossible to determine individual member GPAs from an average.

Regarding the dual membership issue- it isn't an immediate solution, but this is the reason why it is crucial for all chapters and Panhellenics to require the signing of a Membership Recruitment Binding Acceptance Agreement (i.e. "Pref card") or a COB form and to have them on file with the Greek Life office. Even more important is the explanation of the purpose of the form to PNMs before and when they sign it. If you don't know what you're getting yourself into, it's difficult to be held responsible for a rule you weren't aware of.

[AGDee]

We can usually get grades for the members in our chapters (although this is relatively new on a couple campuses too). But, we also have campuses (thinking Canadian chapters) where the orgs aren't recognized because they're all female groups so the Universities don't have anything to do with them, but kind of tolerate the idea that they exist. We cannot always get comparative GPAs for other NPCs to know what rank we are. It's a different culture and does vary greatly by school.

[amanda6035]

but for AXiD, whenever we pledge a new member and send in their paperwork, we have to submit an "anticipated" initiation date. Prior to that date, FHQ sends us back a letter granting us permission to initiate those women. Granted, we've never received a "no you may not initiate this person" from FHQ - but I figured if we were being given permission to initiate them, then there must not have been a membership problem...