Kappa Alpha Order

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by KABillyMac:
USF
My point being that with the state that the greek community is in does it really help when we come to the board and post the wrong doings of other chapters/organiztions? What is to gain in that?

My point is for non greeks and potential greeks that visit this board, how do you think this makes us look. And trust me, although this is mainly a reflection of KA, it looks bad on us all.)

There is nothing to be gained except giving people who already hate greeks more fuel to add to their fire!!

(Disclaimer to Mr. Hammel: Sir, I think this thread is going to get heated. My apolgies up front. I have to do what I can to defend my Order, or at least shine a little light on a terrible situation. I am only one man of 2 on this board that is KA. I guess I gotta say somethin, I'm usually pretty quiet on here.) Anyway, USF, my apoligies.

You don't owe apologies to anyone - you have posted exactly what every other person on this board posts -- your opinions and your beliefs! I too hope the thread closes -- it has been started before and people will always carry the stereotypes of what KA supposedly stands for if they haven't met the "Real Gentlemen" of KA which I know and you obviously represent so well!

Look folks, I love the South. I dont defend racism. My Confederate Battle Flag doesnt mean that to me, nor most of the brothers I have come in contact with. To me, it symbolizes a group of men fighting oppresion, and willing to give their lives for their homes. The good general, Robert E. Lee did not support slavery. When offered the command of the UNION forces he declined, saying that he will side with the confederacy, in defense of his home, old Virginia. Members of my family died in defense of their southern homes. In 1860's slavery was pretty much already on its way out, and most southern soldiers didnt even own slaves, they were just fighting for their homelands.I am a Southerner. Damn proud to be one too. I dont mind getting laughed at for my accent. I dont mind folks laughing at me for wearing boots with a 400 dollars sport coat. I have a good engineering job, a great family, a beutiful girlfriend who I hope will do me the honor of marrying me one day, my faith is good, I make a mean barbeque, got a good dog, a good looking truck, pretty
decent golf game, hunt and fish with the best of em, and believe it or not, this ol country boy can actually cut a rug every once in a while. I am who I am. Good southern men would give you the shirts off their back, the last bite of food they have, and the consideration to stand when a lady walks in a room. The Battle Flag will become as socially unexceptable as the swastika soon. The romantism of the South and being a good southerner in general are both beutiful things. I wouldnt trade it for anything, and I'm willing to give my life for my beliefs.

You have represented yourself, Kappa Alpha Order, and The South very well. People will always give us grief for being from The South - in my opinion, many people have been mislead to believe that heritage is only important if you are from somewhere other than The South - likewise for the issues of truth and integrity.

[lifesaver]

I am sorry if what I posted offended you BillyMac. I guess we have different perceptions of the purpose of this board. I view it as more of a resource for currnet members, than a tool for prtential recruits or non-greeks. I like to come on here to chat, discuss and make myself aware of the issues facing us as greeks around the nation. I understand how it could reflect badly on the system as a whole when there are blemishes, however I do not believe it to be productive to any of our member orgs to look away or pretend something didn't happen. Education is the key. I never made any negative commentary on the subject. We simply were posting for FYI's sake. I even notied in my post the apparent bias of the reporter covering the story. Before this thread was started in january, many other postings had been made about other fraternity chapters closing around the country. If it was one of my chapers that were closed, and I discovered in on cnn.com or in the paper, I would have posted that info as well.

I do not know any KA's. I can and do respect your fervor in defending your order. It might interest you to know that I am a southerner as well. I am VERY proud of my southern heratage. I am a third generation Texan, and can trace my roots to colonial Georgia and Tennesee. PRE-CIVIL war. I lost all kinds of ancestors in the battles. I don't really have any emotional investment in the battle flag. I do in the texas flag, so I can understand how someone could feel about a symbol like that. I am not going to get in the debate over what allegedly happened with the three chapters. I simply put the infor up there for people to read and make their own judgements, and will continue to do so. How can we be expected to defend our beliefs (in greek life) if we choose not to inform ourselves of the good, the bad and the ugly. I hope you feel better and can get some work done today. Email me if you want.

[This message has been edited by lifesaver (edited February 23, 2001).]

[KABillyMac]

I can see both sides of the fence. I would love to be a KA in Texas. Their chapters have beutiful mansions and great brotherhood. My replies today have been heated, but they always are when your trying to defend something you love.
Our national office is voting this summer to ban all confederate regalia from KA property and functions. Will I vote for it? Hell no. I had the honor of meeting our Knight Commander this weekend at our province council. He was a fine man, but also a supporter of removing the Confederate regalia. Well, if it means that less chapters would be suspended, then maybe I will vote for it. Nationals expects us to uphold gentlemanly conduct always. I dont support the suspension of those chapters charters. But hey, when you have broke through and hit the press with your actions, then I guess you have to make an example out of a few. I just dont understand it though. And more especially is Arkansas. There is no way that chapter should have lost their charter because a brother stood up to defend the honor of his girlfriend. I really appreciate your apology today, but it really wasnt necessary. Sometimes I think I should have kept my mouth shut unless the thread got completely out of control, but hey, maybe I'll make a friend or two (or enemy for that matter) out of all this. Any brother that is out there reading this, step up, be heard. If we dont then we will have to accept the oppresion of this.

My heart goes out to my brothers who have lost their charter. I dont know what to say. I can think of no other horror than that of not being able to confer our intiation, that masterpiece, that work of art, upon the minds of young men. Be proud of the Order. You can go to lots of greek pages and see the secrets of some large national fraternities plastered all over them. As for the Order, this is one secret they wont be able to pry from my cold dead hands. My chapter recently won the top national chapter award, but even with that, I know that we have to watch what we say and do, not only to uphold the definition of a gentleman, and because big brother is watching.

[Billy Optimist]

Alpha,
You make a good case. But I feel I should add something. The Confederate battle flag is a rip off of the Scottish flag, St. Andrews Cross. My thoughts on that are a different matter. Most people in the south fought for the right for states to do what ever they want. That is why they joined. The issue of slavery was important to the upper circles of the state governments, but most people fighting the war, includeing most generals, where led to believe they were fighting sort of a second war of independance.
To KA BillyMac, don't take this the wrong way, but Robert E. Lee was going to join the Union untill Virgia suceaded. He couldnot turn his back on Virginia. The Confederacy wasn't unified at all.

[Recent Alumna]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about KA?? The fraternity has its own flag anyway.

[Recent Alumna]

The most important thing to remember is that ALL chapters are different!! Furthermore, isn't this thread supposed to be about KA... not the "Rebel" flag???

[USFSDTAlum]

KABillyMac:
I am sorry that you are upset at my posting of this article about your organization. Although I do not see the need for you to retailiate against my organization. Several people have come on this board and call your organization all sorts of terrible things, while since I personally know no KA's from my school since we have no chapter. The article merely came across my desk, and then i noticed the topic. It hurts to lose chapters, but threatening people is the not the way to handle it, not the gentlemanly way you so pride yourself on. However, should you be so inclined to do so, I am a member of Sigma Delta Tau SORORITY. Knock yourself out, I don't pretend that I have less then stellar chapters somewhere, but I will stand by them because they are my sisters.
-USFstudent

[KABillyMac]

Kappa Alpha Order must realize that symbols that may not have begun as racist can be transformed to be racist all the same. The Swastika is an ancient symbol of the sun, but I would guess that no one associates it with this anymore.

You would guess this?

[Billy Optimist]

Good point KABillyMac. You seem overall like a good bunch of guys. If symbols change, YOu can choose new ones to mean just as much to you. Good luck, and I hope the actions of a few don't jeoprodize a great orginization. The more people that hold on to the ideals of chivalrary the better, and I hope that even if symbols change, the meaning of being a true gentleman remains the same.

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by alpha1906:

Kappa Alpha Order must realize that symbols that may not have begun as racist can be transformed to be racist all the same. The Swastika is an ancient symbol of the sun, but I would guess that no one associates it with this anymore. The Confederate flag is a painful reminder for Americans that at one time, human beings died to KEEP other human being in bondage. And the resurrection of that symbol by fraternities or civic groups is a continuing slap in the face to all Americans.

Yes this thread was about KA -- but as always, people want to cause drama and will use any excuse to do it. I have stated before that the KA's I've known were nothing short of true gentlemen and were more socially conscious than any other fraternities on campus -- including both HWGLO's and HBGLO's.

In regards to this previous post.....I have always been intringued by those who believe that it is perfectly acceptable to live and die by what they deem as "their rights" but yet continue to tell others what they don't have a right to do. I don't own a Confederate flag - but I whole heartedly agree that anyone who does, and wishes to fly the flag (on their own property be it a house, car, whatever), has a right to do so! I don't agree with the KKK or the NAACP -- but I believe that good people fought and died for the rights of each group to exist. Freedom of speech and expression cannot be limited to what one person (or a group for that matter) thinks is acceptable. So why should KA have to change their heritage and symbols? So others can agree with it??? If that's the case, then there is a whole lot of double standards out there that need to be fixed --- for example, in my fraternity, not once ANYWHERE will anyone find the words "To uplift/build/whatever the white community" -- because we believe in building and uplifting ALL COMMUNITIES. Not once does it say "The Christian Community" -- because we believe in freedom to worship. Not once does it say "Alpha Chi Omega above all else" because we believe that our fraternity should never interfere with our obligation to divine beliefs, family, and friends. I would have to say that based on what I know of Kappa Alpha Order, they too would stand by these type beliefs. And no one has a right to change that because they have made an inaccurate assumption of what a flag or a song means to them personally! Unless you are a member of KA Order, you cannot know what it means to them to wear with honor and pride the symbols of that fraternity. I don't know what it means to wear with honor and pride the symbols of any other frat or soro, so I know good and well that I don't have the right to tell them they can't wear it anymore just because I don't agree with it.

This topic will never cease to rise and fall - I know that we all have our own opinions and beliefs, but I also know that I have the right to love my family and my heritage for what it means to me -- the same as we all do -- and KA shouldn't be excluded from that right.

[KABillyMac]

AXO,

I just wanted to thank you for your support, you are a eloquent (sp?) speaker. I have enjoyed reading your responses and on behalf of KA I just wanted to thank you.

KA has hundreds of black members. We do not turn men away because of race. I know this may come as a suprise to many of you. Maybe that kinda gives you all a diffrent view of KA.

I was not going to fight about the history of the Civil War on this post. God I wanted to but I didnt. I would like to extend an invatation to the BGLO member, the author of "The Divine Nine" the opprotunity to discuss this in email. I'm not a dumb hilljack and I'm fully prepared to go toe to toe with him/her on Southern history. That post had a couple incorrect statements in it anyway. I just dont think a KA thread is going to be the proper place to fight about the history of the South.

Once again, thank you to those of you who stepped up and showed support.

[superchick]

I thought if you wear the confederate uniform to important events and wave the confederate flag around all the time that you would be racist. They are at my campus, they get in fights with the BGLO's all the time.

[The1calledTKE]

I don't know if they are racist. I have heard of black KA's before. There was one I used to talk to that was from a North Carolina chapter. Would a black person join a racist fraternity?

[josh8o]

Originally posted by zntke711
Would a black person join a racist fraternity?

it would be highly unlikely, but there are chapters that are not racest...and sometimes when a guy rushes he does not know what the national repuataion is.

[MoxieGrrl]

My .02 on the gentleman of Kappa Alpha Order and their "racist" reputation:

1. My boyfriend's KA chapter (Beta Beta, I believe) was almost entirely African-American in the 1970's. In the 1980's, they were from every imaginable nationality, as they were also known as the "soccer" house. And this is in West by Gawd Virginia. Since our diversity at Bethany has gone drastically downhill since those days, so do the numbers of minorities in the Beta Beta chapter. It just happened like that, and it's not a reflection of the men in the organization.

2. I read a story somewhere that KA was flying the Confederate Flag, and it bothered a cleaning woman. Someone approached the chapter and asked them to take it down. The guys asked why and the person said it was upsetting the cleaning woman. So, they took it down. No more questions asked. I thought that was v.v.nice.

3. I'm sure that the KA brothers that made racist comments, etc... were assholes before they joined KA. Their attitudes are due to their upbringing, not the supposed "brainwashing" of fraternity life.