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  #136  
Old 02-18-2013, 06:18 PM
amIblue? amIblue? is offline
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I'd prefer not to make an assumption about the character of a person who got caught up for a single mistake drinking at a party at which there were so many students charged with underage drinking that it made the paper.

Kids do stupid things. That doesn't mean that they're beyond redemption or can't learn from a single mistake.

ETA: this is directed to AnchorAlumna's comment about my earlier response to cheerio. Greekdee's comment describes a whole other level of crazy.
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Last edited by amIblue?; 02-18-2013 at 06:20 PM.
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  #137  
Old 02-18-2013, 07:10 PM
Hartofsec Hartofsec is offline
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Originally Posted by adpiucf View Post
Absolutely agree with this narrow example provided and respect your experience. I will continue to contend that the hypothetical posed by the other poster implying blanket liability for saying anything about a student was incorrect.

I guess this is where I turn on my heel and flounce dramatically?
Well, that's really not what I said.

But a lane swerve --

I don't necessarily feel that school district staff -- potentially including teachers, principals, and even guidance counselors -- all know FERPA well themselves (understandably, since they set out to be teachers, not lawyers).

At least that was my experience during my only encounter with FERPA -- I used FERPA, on behalf of my child, to obtain copies of emails (containing negative info) that were swapped between a few teachers. While my son was informed by a coach/teacher that he (the teacher) sent these to other teachers and administrators (pertaining to a situation in his class), the coach ignored my request to be included (I was never informed of the incident in question, either, other than by my child).

As per FERPA, these emails were subject to becoming part of my child's educational record, and not considered protected (or private) communication between staff.

The emails were illuminating, and the problem was easily resolved (I wasn't after punishment or legal vengence -- just wanted to solve the perceived problem). I didn't file a complaint or involve an attorney (the school apparently involved their own board attorney to interpret the law, as the principal was reluctant to release these). I don't know what administration said to the teachers regarding the content of the emails. However, a school-wide FERPA inservice was held the following month -- which was a good thing, for their own protection.

I don't claim to be an expert on FERPA, but while I "don't have any idea what I'm talking about," as you contend, apparently some teachers and administrators know even less than I, and are in need of training.

One way or another, if I was a high school guidance counselor, and Mildred A. Lum called requesting info about senior girls, I would err on the side of protecting the students' privacy. I would advise Mildred to obtain transcripts from the girls themselves.

Last edited by Hartofsec; 02-18-2013 at 07:25 PM.
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  #138  
Old 02-18-2013, 07:23 PM
Hartofsec Hartofsec is offline
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Originally Posted by greekdee View Post
As far as no recs go, I have never sent one in but sometimes you don't need to since people's reputations can precede them. Several years ago, there was a girl in my area who had a great resume of activities, strong GPA and very cute appearance. She also had the ability to bring to life Carrie Underwood's lyrics of "I took a Louisville Slugger to both headlights." She demolished the car of a fellow student, right in the high school parking lot...though I believe a crow bar was her actual tool of destruction. She did this junior year and the victim was not a cheating boyfriend -- it was a girl who was her competition in the race to win some guy's heart. (I believe she lost.) Anyway, the families of these two girls ended up handling it privately, so there is no info on Crow Bar Girl to be found via Google. She did, however, end up at a university attended by MANY girls from her high school and a lot are Greek. They already knew the story.
I would need a compelling reason to contact a chapter regarding a PNM's past.

^But that would probably do it.
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  #139  
Old 02-18-2013, 07:35 PM
AGDee AGDee is offline
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Originally Posted by adpiucf View Post
I am not trying to offend you, and I feel certain you aren't trying to offend me. I think the difference may lie not only in how some schools value recs over others, but also in how one sorority values recommendations over another in membership selection. Every sorority has different criteria that they value over others. A recommendation doesn't guarantee someone a bid to a sorority, but it is something considered in the process and some organizations may place more weight on the rec than other sororities. I guess I am now understanding that for some sororities, a rec is just a rec, and for others, it carries varying degrees of weight in actual selection.

ETA: When I say "value," I mean actual valuation (e.g., predetermined weight) of a factor considered in the selection process, not that you don't value the opinions of your alumnae. For example, every chapter puts value (weight) into a minimum GPA.
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Originally Posted by gee_ess View Post
Good thoughts, ADPiUCF

Maybe that is what is at play here. Some groups, as a whole, do not value alumnae recommendations. It is not the chapter, but the entire organization? This is something I really was not aware of and would make sense.
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Originally Posted by amIblue? View Post
I think this is well said. We wouldn't all be fighting over the same PNMs if a good candidate for one isn't also a good candidate for others. I think that we, as NPCers have far more in common than differences.

And I'd still like to hear from some more actives. Where's Old Row?
While it may be true that some orgs don't hold a rec in the same regard as others, within the orgs that do, there are still regional differences. If there was an actual valuation on it as adpiucf refers to, if nobody has a rec, then it is a level playing field. If everybody has a wonderful rec, it is a level playing field. At these very competitive schools, I'm sure just having a rec doesn't put a young woman on a level playing field, because the quality of the rec matters.

Nobody wants to get too far into membership selection but I would hazard a guess that, like college or job recommendation letters, the quality of the opinion within the rec becomes obvious and important. I've only written recs for young women I know personally that I could absolutely say would contribute greatly to ANY organization. If I wrote one that was less gushing, it would be obvious.

I went to a school where we knew what they were, but rarely received them. We were always asked about them by traveling consultants "Where are your recs?" The reality is, here, in this state, sorority membership is not valued by the general society. It is not required to get into the Junior League or be in the higher social circles. In fact, nobody really cares about social circles in this area. It is not a source of pride, it tends to be something you have to defend.

In the past two decades, it was nearly impossible to find someone walking around the U of Michigan campus in letters. There were these big huge houses with letters on them. You never saw people wearing letters though. It was NOT a source of pride. They didn't want to defend their choice all the time. That has been changing in this decade, and that's a good thing! But, all most people know up here is what they see in the media- hazing and drinking. Because of that, people don't talk about their greek experiences much outside of their group.

Even deeper than that though... girls don't have recs up here because they have no clue that they might want to go through recruitment until they're at school, see the Greek tables at the student org fairs, go to some Meet the Greek events around campus to get the free food and then say "Hey, that looks like it might be fun to do" three days before recruitment starts. They don't sign up 4 months in advance and move into the dorms early. If they did, nobody would be there. They show up to orientation and register. When would they possibly get recs? Being greek is rarely on their radar before they get to school. As much as I talked it up to Hypo's friends, the one who did go through (other than Hypo) didn't even tell me until after first rounds and it was too late for me to do a rec! She's an Alpha Gam anyway, but still...

Last edited by AGDee; 02-18-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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  #140  
Old 02-18-2013, 07:35 PM
FSUZeta FSUZeta is offline
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Originally Posted by DubaiSis View Post
My biggest problem with the "recs required" systems is it is patently unfair to anyone who grew up outside the south, and since students are traveling all across the US (and worldwide) to go to school, this seems like a step to limit the chances or increase the stress factor for the girl who isn't from a large'ish southern city who's mom wasn't a socialite.

My guess is, and for dog's sake don't take this to the bank, there ARE chapters in the deep south where recs are actually NOT required. But would I want it put on record that my sorority doesn't? Hell no. It would have the affect of saying we are less selective. Unless my sorority's MS system has changed dramatically, recs have a role, but I can't imagine that one element being enough on its own to get a girl cut unless she was low on the bubble anyway. And if I'm correct in this thinking (that they don't hold as much weight as we like to say), then I think stopping talking about it so much would be really really helpful. If it were possible to go back to only writing recs for girls who you personally know so that they were an actual leg up, then I'd be all for that. But while we keep saying they are absolutely positively, you not only aren't getting a bid but you might get kicked out of school and probably will never have friends in your whole life required, then girls will continue getting them for every chapter, regardless of how tedious or unhelpful.
We say this because at the schools we have noted in another thread, for a PNM to be in the driver's seat (as much as she can) they ARE a must. It doesn't matter if you think they are bogus and unnecessary, it doesn't matter if I think they are unnecessary, the fact is that they ARE. If they are not needed, and in some cases not even recognized, at other schools, then the PNM does not have to worry herself obtaining them. For the most part, PNM classes at the large, southern schools are ginormous, and recs. are required, and enough girls think it is worth the effort that they comply. If they didn't, I think the #'s registered for recruitment would not continue to rise, as they have been.

It's like someone thinking that references for college admission or a job are stupid and unnecessary. After all, the person conducting the interview should know enough to make a good decision based on the actual interview and the applicants transcript and resume'. Yet applicants are still expected to supply both for any professional job they fill out an application for and if they don't, woe to them.

I guess what I am trying to say is, most sororities up north haven't seen a recommendation and don't know what to do with them(from what has been reported here on GC), and that's okay. I am not going to tell them that they are wrong. But if a PNM is headed south, and especially if she is attending a large university that has a competitive recruitment, she had better invest some time and round up at least one recommendation for each chapter on campus. If that chapter doesn't want to use the rec., they can shred it. But it is better to be prepared than to be sorry later.

I would add that for some sororities, it is a national requirement that each new member have a rec. before she participates in the formal pledging ceremony.
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Last edited by FSUZeta; 02-18-2013 at 07:47 PM.
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  #141  
Old 02-18-2013, 07:55 PM
DubaiSis DubaiSis is offline
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I'm not saying it's not true, just that if we stop saying it, maybe the number of girls getting recs to every single chapter will drop to a realistic number and they will therefore not be as important to the process. If it's just a box to be checked, then they should be dumped. If you want them to be used for a valid purpose then the threat of near death if you don't have them should stop. If after a reasonable search among grown ups you actually know you don't know anyone who is Greek, then that should be that. But until practicality and logic are brought into the process I would tell any girl to beat every bush for any stranger who can recite the Greek alphabet. But I still stand on my opinion that this practice is ridiculous and abusive.

eta/or go to school in the north.
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  #142  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:15 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Originally Posted by AGDee View Post
Even deeper than that though... girls don't have recs up here because they have no clue that they might want to go through recruitment until they're at school, see the Greek tables at the student org fairs, go to some Meet the Greek events around campus to get the free food and then say "Hey, that looks like it might be fun to do" three days before recruitment starts. They don't sign up 4 months in advance and move into the dorms early. If they did, nobody would be there. They show up to orientation and register. When would they possibly get recs? Being greek is rarely on their radar before they get to school.
Exactly. I think I may have posted something similar to this earlier in the thread. It's just not the same up north as it is down south. In many cases, the word "sorority" doesn't enter a girl's vocabulary until she's at least a few weeks into her freshmen year of college.

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Originally Posted by FSUZeta View Post
It's like someone thinking that references for college admission or a job are stupid and unnecessary. After all, the person conducting the interview should know enough to make a good decision based on the actual interview and the applicants transcript and resume'. Yet applicants are still expected to supply both for any professional job they fill out an application for and if they don't, woe to them.
I wouldn't consider this exactly the same. When obtaining recommendations to attend school or to get a job, you're soliciting those recommendations from people you know and from people who know you. On the other hand, in some cases, PNMs are obtaining recs to join a sorority from people they've never even met before.
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  #143  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:20 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post
I wouldn't consider this exactly the same. When obtaining recommendations to attend school or to get a job, you're soliciting those recommendations from people you know and from people who know you. On the other hand, in some cases, PNMs are obtaining recs to join a sorority from people they've never even met before.
I think the point was more "you have to do some homework", and that's fine, but one of the very worst things about recs, IMO, is that PNM's who aren't in the know are constantly told they do NOT have to obtain them.
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  #144  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:32 PM
AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna View Post
I have been told that this is necessary to maintain single sex status, according to federal requirements and/or guidelines.

If so, then anyone insisting that their sorority or chapter doesn't "do" recs or doesn't have to consider them may be a) not following the requirements of their group b)jeopardizing the group's single sex status.


Maybe I have this wrong?

I've seen plenty of "SEC quality" recs from non-SEC alumnae...not all, but a good many. Also seen a lot of "non-SEC quality" from SEC alums...it's not your conference, it's your training.
I don't think this is correct or maybe DG interprets this differently than other organizations do. AOII does NOT require a recommendation to be initiated. I know this for a fact. New Members are voted in by the group, so I think this is probably sufficient to maintain any single-sex status, exclusivity requirements mandated by the federal government.
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  #145  
Old 02-19-2013, 12:46 AM
kchaptergphib kchaptergphib is offline
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Originally Posted by AGDee View Post
Even deeper than that though... girls don't have recs up here because they have no clue that they might want to go through recruitment until they're at school, see the Greek tables at the student org fairs, go to some Meet the Greek events around campus to get the free food and then say "Hey, that looks like it might be fun to do" three days before recruitment starts. They don't sign up 4 months in advance and move into the dorms early. If they did, nobody would be there. They show up to orientation and register. When would they possibly get recs? Being greek is rarely on their radar before they get to school. As much as I talked it up to Hypo's friends, the one who did go through (other than Hypo) didn't even tell me until after first rounds and it was too late for me to do a rec! She's an Alpha Gam anyway, but still...
I'd say a fair amount of what AGDee said above applies to the older chapter, Big Ten (13?) campuses. There are absolutely women who know they want to participate in FR before they come to school, but I'd say it's less than 50 percent, probably closer to 30 (at least, at the 3 schools I've been involved with in the past decade).
That said, just because a campus isn't on the list of RECS REQUIRED, doesn't mean recs are uncommon. I don't think it's out of line for me to say that two years ago, every single woman on our bid list had a rec written for her prior to recruitment. Now, that was unusual, but I'd say last year, probably 2/3rds of the bid list had recs. Again, that brings into question what quality of recs did each woman have? I'm sure it varied. But even this Yankee knows what is a blah/lame/waste of time rec, what is a good rec, and what is a great rec. Thankfully I have yet to receive a "cannot recommend" rec.
There were certainly ladies with great recs who did not make it to later rounds and (in normal years) there were obviously ladies who did not have recs that made it to the bid list.
I just want to make it clear that, at the old, Midwestern campuses & chapters that I've worked with, we did receive recs, we did use them, and we did weigh them individually along with all the other info we had on the PNMs. I'm sure it varies from school to school, organization to organization and chapter to chapter, but I (and I believe, the actives) found them useful.
Just my perspective
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  #146  
Old 02-19-2013, 06:41 AM
AGDee AGDee is offline
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I was also thinking the "directional" MAC kinds of schools- Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, etc. Recs are a little more common in the Big 10 (13) and the Big 10 does include schools like Indiana where they are definitely more common. But then, Indiana is deferred so women have some time to be exposed to the greek system in advance too.
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  #147  
Old 02-19-2013, 08:59 AM
gee_ess gee_ess is offline
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Originally Posted by Hartofsec View Post
Well, that's really not what I said.

But a lane swerve --

I don't necessarily feel that school district staff -- potentially including teachers, principals, and even guidance counselors -- all know FERPA well themselves (understandably, since they set out to be teachers, not lawyers).

At least that was my experience during my only encounter with FERPA -- I used FERPA, on behalf of my child, to obtain copies of emails (containing negative info) that were swapped between a few teachers. While my son was informed by a coach/teacher that he (the teacher) sent these to other teachers and administrators (pertaining to a situation in his class), the coach ignored my request to be included (I was never informed of the incident in question, either, other than by my child).

As per FERPA, these emails were subject to becoming part of my child's educational record, and not considered protected (or private) communication between staff.

The emails were illuminating, and the problem was easily resolved (I wasn't after punishment or legal vengence -- just wanted to solve the perceived problem). I didn't file a complaint or involve an attorney (the school apparently involved their own board attorney to interpret the law, as the principal was reluctant to release these). I don't know what administration said to the teachers regarding the content of the emails. However, a school-wide FERPA inservice was held the following month -- which was a good thing, for their own protection.

I don't claim to be an expert on FERPA, but while I "don't have any idea what I'm talking about," as you contend, apparently some teachers and administrators know even less than I, and are in need of training.

One way or another, if I was a high school guidance counselor, and Mildred A. Lum called requesting info about senior girls, I would err on the side of protecting the students' privacy. I would advise Mildred to obtain transcripts from the girls themselves.
Serving into the lane with you -

I admit I have skimmed/skipped the posts on this FERPA issue, but did read this one. Wow. I commend you for following through on this. I was a high school teacher and can only imagine what a runaway train situation those email exchanges were.
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  #148  
Old 02-19-2013, 10:20 AM
Hartofsec Hartofsec is offline
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Originally Posted by gee_ess View Post
Serving into the lane with you -

I admit I have skimmed/skipped the posts on this FERPA issue, but did read this one. Wow. I commend you for following through on this. I was a high school teacher and can only imagine what a runaway train situation those email exchanges were.
I'm swerving still --

Thanks, gee_ess. Fortunately the vast majority of his teachers have been wonderfully supportive, and I think not at all sorry that (especially one) particular individual’s unprofessional behavior was exposed.

Since his initial bluff was to refuse to meet with me without including the entire teaching team and administrators, I complied with his wish and scheduled the meeting. I'm sure it was disconcerting to finally meet with a parent, who has your snarky emails in hand, in front of the uninvolved staff that you involved via email and insisted all attend.

Turns out he was considerably taller in email.

Last edited by Hartofsec; 02-19-2013 at 10:24 AM.
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  #149  
Old 02-19-2013, 11:31 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by Hartofsec View Post
But asking someone else what they have heard isn't really verification. And you could also be asking someone (even an alum) who doesn't like the PNM's mom, or whose daughter wasn't invited to the PNM's 16th birthday bash. Some moms (yes, even alums) can be a little less than objective where girls their daughter's age are concerned -- even a little vengeful.

It's hard to tell sometimes where the line between vouching for ends and meddling in begins.

Just food for thought -- when PNMs ask around similarly regarding the reputation of a chapter, they are thought to be soliciting tent talk.
Perhaps the point is to figure out whether the PNM is smart enough to realize who is in her corner/really likes her, and who is just faking it for social matters? Don't know, just a thought.

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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
Hm...this brings up something interesting...pledge periods used to be a lot longer, and, I *think*, in most orgs, it used to be easier to break a pledge if something came out about the woman that made her unfit for membership. I don't really know where I am going with this, except that it seems like perhaps the "no rec" has possibly gotten more important?
Shorter/easier pledge periods DEFINITELY have a lot to do with it. In effect, it seems like the work you do getting recs, preparing for rush etc is the work you used to do during pledging.

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Originally Posted by adpiucf View Post
I take issue with sorority members stating that their chapter wouldn't know what to do with a rec if they got one, contending they have no value, and theorizing that a rec could hurt a PNM at such a school where they are not common.
didn't help or hurt.
I'm pretty sure it was violetpretty who said at her school recs weren't looked on favorably because they were seen as meddling by alums (usually not from UMD) who didn't know anything about the school or the makeup of the chapter. Most other places, no matter how laid back the rush, I doubt it would HURT, unless the girl in question turned out to be someone on the more negative side of on the fence about her. We only got a handful that I can remember. One rec from Alum of Kansas School who moved to PA? Fine. If A of KS would have had 10 of her chapter sisters write recs and send letters, the response probably would have been "forget that, this girl must think we owe her something, no I don't think so."

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Originally Posted by irishpipes View Post
Very recently a GC poster (maybe 33girl?) posted that her NPC doesn't even have a rec form. So, I would say it is very possible that some nationals don't value recs - they utilize other methods in their MS.
This most definitely was NOT me. If you could edit your post that would be awesome.
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Last edited by 33girl; 02-19-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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  #150  
Old 02-19-2013, 01:21 PM
amIblue? amIblue? is offline
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I know we're not talking about Bama or Auburn, but Duke, Vandy, and UVA have large and competitive deferred recruitments. My impression, based mainly on Duke, is that the deferral works in the sense that your reputation on campus plays a much bigger role than recs.
First semester reputation is definitely primary at Vandy.
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