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06-24-2016, 12:20 PM
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FISHER v. UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN ET AL.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/24/us...exas.html?_r=0
"WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected a challenge to a race-conscious admissions program at the University of Texas at Austin, handing supporters of affirmative action a major victory.
The decision, Fisher v. University of Texas, No. 14-981, concerned an unusual program and contained a warning to other universities that not all affirmative action programs will pass constitutional muster. But the ruling’s basic message was that admissions officials may continue to consider race as one factor among many in ensuring a diverse student body.
The decision, by a 4-to-3 vote, was unexpected. Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, the author of the majority opinion, has long been skeptical of race-sensitive programs and had never before voted to uphold an affirmative action plan. He dissented in the last major affirmative action case.
Supporters of affirmative action hailed the decision as a landmark.
“No decision since Brown v. Board of Education has been as important as Fisher will prove to be in the long history of racial inclusion and educational diversity,” said Laurence H. Tribe, a law professor at Harvard, referring to the Supreme Court’s 1954 decision striking down segregated public schools.
Roger Clegg, the president of the Center for Equal Opportunity, which supports colorblind policies, said the decision, though disappointing, was only a temporary setback.
“The court’s decision leaves plenty of room for future challenges to racial preference policies at other schools,” he said. “The struggle goes on.”
President Obama hailed the decision. “I’m pleased that the Supreme Court upheld the basic notion that diversity is an important value in our society,” he told reporters at the White House. “We are not a country that guarantees equal outcomes, but we do strive to provide an equal shot to everybody.” "
pdf http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...4-981_4g15.pdf
"The University of Texas at Austin (University) uses an undergraduate
admissions system containing two components. First, as required by
the State’s Top Ten Percent Law, it offers admission to any students
who graduate from a Texas high school in the top 10% of their class.
It then fills the remainder of its incoming freshman class, some 25%,
by combining an applicant’s “Academic Index”—the student’s SAT
score and high school academic performance—with the applicant’s
“Personal Achievement Index,” a holistic review containing numerous
factors, including race. The University adopted its current admissions
process in 2004, after a year-long-study of its admissions process—undertaken
in the wake of Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U. S. 306,
and Gratz v. Bollinger, 539 U. S. 244—led it to conclude that its prior
race-neutral system did not reach its goal of providing the educational
benefits of diversity to its undergraduate students.
P etitioner Abigail Fisher, who was not in the top 10% of her high
school class, was denied admission to the University’s 2008 freshman
class"
Thoughts?
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06-24-2016, 02:44 PM
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What I hear as a concern from educators there: this policy is sending unprepared people of all races to UT.
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06-25-2016, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation
What I hear as a concern from educators there: this policy is sending unprepared people of all races to UT.
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That's because it's a K-12 problem. ALL colleges and universities in Texas pull from the same body of potential students coming out of Texas public high schools.
IMHO the issues stems from the TEA, Texas Education Agency, that sets the academic standards for K-12 public schools. And, the disconnect that TEA has with the THECB, Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board, that sets the academic standards for public colleges and universities.
Over the years the TEA has lowered the passing score for the state mandated tests. Over the years the state mandated tests has gone by many names - TAKS, TEAMS, TAAS, and now I think it is called STAAR.
Over my years of working in higher ed. we were told we couldn't tell K-12 what to do to best prepare those students for college and university.
And, with NCLB, it has made it harder for K-12 public schools to retain students. So now, K-12 public schools basically have to promote everyone to ensure they will graduate from high school.
As for Ms. Fisher, if she really wanted to get into UT-Austin as a top 10% student, she should have "gamed the system" by transferring to a "lower performing" school for her senior year of high school. It is not unheard of......
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06-25-2016, 05:04 PM
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Well, not only that but let's say you have 30% of some high school in say, Plano, with a deserved GPA of over a 4.0. All could easily excel at Texas or A&M. Then you have some tiny high school out in the sticks somewhere whose--maybe--top 2 kids can do it but the rest will flame out spectacularly in their first semester (not that the Plano kids won't but it won't be due to academic unpreparedness, most likely). I have taught at both kinds of high schools and can picture it so easily.
Texas is shooting itself in the foot two ways. First, with the above scenario. Second, because a lot of these kids want a 4-year big U experience so Texas is losing these kids to other big Southern schools and sometimes they don't return to Texas. I have been openmouthed at the numbers of Texas women on the new member lists at Arkansas, OSU, OU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Auburn, and Bama. Also, a lot of those schools offer fabulous scholarships to the scorned Texans. After all--a lot of the scorned Texans only have a 3.95!
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06-25-2016, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation
Well, not only that but let's say you have 30% of some high school in say, Plano, with a deserved GPA of over a 4.0. All could easily excel at Texas or A&M. Then you have some tiny high school out in the sticks somewhere whose--maybe--top 2 kids can do it but the rest will flame out spectacularly in their first semester (not that the Plano kids won't but it won't be due to academic unpreparedness, most likely). I have taught at both kinds of high schools and can picture it so easily.
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This would happen anyway, without the top 10% rule. I saw this happening in my own freshman class in 1987.
The top 10% rule is a way to level the playing field since race could no longer be considered a strong admissions factor. And, just because you can get into any school for any reason, that does not mean you will graduate in four years.
Quote:
Texas is shooting itself in the foot two ways. First, with the above scenario. Second, because a lot of these kids want a 4-year big U experience so Texas is losing these kids to other big Southern schools and sometimes they don't return to Texas. I have been openmouthed at the numbers of Texas women on the new member lists at Arkansas, OSU, OU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Auburn, and Bama. Also, a lot of those schools offer fabulous scholarships to the scorned Texans. After all--a lot of the scorned Texans only have a 3.95!
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I don't think Texas is shooting itself in the foot for the reason I stated above. If there is anything shooting Texas in the foot, it is the cost of living in Austin which has skyrocketed over the last 10 - 15 years.
And for the NPC orgs at Texas, that is a very small issue. Considering the thousands of students who go there, only a few are interested in joining NPC orgs at Texas. Since we all know it is real hard to get into a NPC sorority at Texas, especially the coveted Big 6, then that is probably the reason so many Texas girls go to other big southern schools.
But, I get it. Go to Texas, join a Big 6 chapter, marry well, preferably a man from a well established native Texas family, and become the hottest Dallas socialite.
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06-25-2016, 05:47 PM
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I'm not sure these girls would have necessarily gone Greek at Texas. They might have joined one of the coveted spirit organizations, for instance. And Austin has a lot to do!
The ones I've talked to have left the state for the big U experience. At a lot of these OOS schools, going Greek is a big deal because they're located in small towns waayy away from tons to do. CoughcoughStarkvilleMS, although I hear it's gotten better.
So the girls who wanted to become Dallas socialites may end up in Birmingham, Baton Rouge, or Atlanta but hey, we all make choices and pray for the best.
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07-13-2016, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmadiva
This would happen anyway, without the top 10% rule. I saw this happening in my own freshman class in 1987.
The top 10% rule is a way to level the playing field since race could no longer be considered a strong admissions factor. And, just because you can get into any school for any reason, that does not mean you will graduate in four years.
I don't think Texas is shooting itself in the foot for the reason I stated above. If there is anything shooting Texas in the foot, it is the cost of living in Austin which has skyrocketed over the last 10 - 15 years.
And for the NPC orgs at Texas, that is a very small issue. Considering the thousands of students who go there, only a few are interested in joining NPC orgs at Texas. Since we all know it is real hard to get into a NPC sorority at Texas, especially the coveted Big 6, then that is probably the reason so many Texas girls go to other big southern schools.
But, I get it. Go to Texas, join a Big 6 chapter, marry well, preferably a man from a well established native Texas family, and become the hottest Dallas socialite.
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I agree - Austin is getting too expensive which will drive some of its current residents out, but everyday I see more and more out of state license plates so they will just be replaced (sadly IMO). My home value has gone up a substantial amount (well for me) which is great but the taxes are also going up and this will force me to sell my house in a couple of years.
And to the comment above about her poor SAT score-I performed very poorly on the SAT but I was a very good student. I feel the SAT has no prediction on how a student will do in college. I went to college with merit scholarship recipients that had very high SAT scores and they barely made it through undergrad. Not that they were not smart, quite the opposite, but they did not know how to study. I finished my undergrad requirements in three years and was accepted to vet. school early. I feel the same about the ACT for grad school. Again, I did not have a great GRE score but my undergrad grades were very good. During my vet school interview the poor score was mentioned and I had to explain that I was not very good with that type of testing. I did very well in vet school despite the poor GRE score.
Last edited by aggieAXO; 07-13-2016 at 05:30 PM.
Reason: Not ACT but GRE
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07-12-2016, 05:11 PM
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As for Ms. Fisher, if she really wanted to get into UT-Austin as a top 10% student, she should have "gamed the system" by transferring to a "lower performing" school for her senior year of high school. It is not unheard of......[/QUOTE]
BINGO. Several students at strong high schools did just that - my kids graduated from JJ Pearce in the Richardson ISD back in the day and were not in the top 10% - but had several AP classes and scored in the 1250 range under the old SAT. High ACT scores as well and were admitted to EVERY other school they applied to. My Son graduated magna cum laude in finance and economics, has two Masters and is the CFO of a company here in Florida.
They couldn't get better than wait listed at UT which was fine since they were never interested in UT. But the State came up with the top 10% rule to solve the affirmative action predicament. What I am saying is that high schools in the Dallas ISD had kids in the top 10% who barely made 1000 on their SAT and who spent their freshman year in all remedials at UT yet just scraped by.
Kids from Plano and Richardson had high scores, grades, etc. and had to do summer school to get into UT. Many chose not to and went to places like Indiana U., a very good academic school, and were able to graduate just fine. Some kids in our neighborhood transferred to Hillcrest High School so they could get better class rankings, using their grandparents' address to get into the DISD.
UT has freshman retention problems because of the 10% admission rule. Nonetheless, Ms. Fisher has graduated from LSU law and I am sure she's doing very well.
Last edited by AnchorAlum; 07-12-2016 at 05:18 PM.
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07-12-2016, 11:25 PM
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From what I know of the top public schools in Texas, her alma mater was not one. So, it doesn't seem as if there were 10 valedictorians or that the top 10% was filled with kids who were extraordinary.
The long and short of it is that Abigail Fisher was a mediocre (at best) student who thought she was entitled to attend her flagship university. An 1180 SAT? I'm pretty sure I did better than that when we were invited to take the SAT in 7th or 8th grade. UT-Austin is simply entering the league of UVa, Michigan, UNC, UCLA, and Berkeley where just being a "good in-state student" isn't enough. I'm seeing it to some extent at Florida too, as kids who would have been shoo-ins back in the 90s are being denied, as Bright Futures (the lottery scholarship) is keeping the top kids who may have gone OOS right at home.
FWIW, Abigail Fisher did not go to LSU Law--she only got her undergrad from there and is now, interestingly enough, working in Austin.
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07-13-2016, 07:47 AM
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Well, there's more to it than that; unprepared freshmen are coming to UT and flaming out spectacularly. That's why there are those programs that offer an easier transfer admission to sophomores on up.
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07-13-2016, 03:19 PM
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[QUOTE=Munchkin03;2413698]
The long and short of it is that Abigail Fisher was a mediocre (at best) student who thought she was entitled to attend her flagship university. An 1180 SAT? I'm pretty sure I did better than that when we were invited to take the SAT in 7th or 8th grade. UT-Austin is simply entering the league of UVa, Michigan, UNC, UCLA, and Berkeley where just being a "good in-state student" isn't enough. I'm seeing it to some extent at Florida too, as kids who would have been shoo-ins back in the 90s are being denied, as Bright Futures (the lottery scholarship) is keeping the top kids who may have gone OOS right at home.
QUOTE]
This is pretty much the issue. It's similar to what the Court found in a case at Michigan--which does not have a percentage plan. The plaintiff's scores just weren't good enough to get in. She wasn't a bad student, but compared to the other students who applied the year she did, she was not as qualified based on grades, strength of classes, test scores, extra curriculars, etc. She said her life was ruined and that she couldn't become a doctor because she didn't get into UM. Really? I'm pretty sure there are a lot of doctors out there who went to schools that aren't as highly ranked as Michigan.
My cousin lives in New Mexico and he got into UT with grades that probably would not have gotten him in if he lived in Texas. I think Texas's plan is probably a good idea with bad execution.
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07-13-2016, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmadiva
That's because it's a K-12 problem. ALL colleges and universities in Texas pull from the same body of potential students coming out of Texas public high schools.
IMHO the issues stems from the TEA, Texas Education Agency, that sets the academic standards for K-12 public schools. And, the disconnect that TEA has with the THECB, Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board, that sets the academic standards for public colleges and universities.
Over the years the TEA has lowered the passing score for the state mandated tests. Over the years the state mandated tests has gone by many names - TAKS, TEAMS, TAAS, and now I think it is called STAAR.
Over my years of working in higher ed. we were told we couldn't tell K-12 what to do to best prepare those students for college and university.
And, with NCLB, it has made it harder for K-12 public schools to retain students. So now, K-12 public schools basically have to promote everyone to ensure they will graduate from high school.
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I'm late, but I agree with all of this.
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06-25-2016, 05:36 PM
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Carnation, I see that a lot with UGA. I've seen many high GPA kids (3.8 on a 4.0 scale) with volunteer hours, athletics, extracurriculars, etc get rejected. But Alabama courts these OOS kids with partial or full scholarships. A friend's son is taking advantage of that now. If you live in the Atlanta area, it's very hard to get in UGA because they don't want it to be just a bunch of ATL kids attending and that makes sense & many brainiacs are staying in state due to the HOPE grant.
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07-16-2016, 01:23 PM
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Did you have to post such a large image?
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07-16-2016, 05:43 PM
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It's extremely petty to not only belabor the point about her physical appearance, but also to pick the most unattractive picture of her possible. She has never indicated that she wished to join a sorority, and it's obvious that she has other priorities in life. We can discuss the case without resorting to ad hominem attacks, mkay?
As to Abigail's merits, I don't think "Fisher had a grade point average of 3.59 (adjusted to a 4.0 scale) and was in the top 12% of her class at Stephen F. Austin High School. She scored 1180 on her SAT (measured on the old 1600-point scale, because UT Austin did not consider the writing section in its undergraduate admissions decision for the 2008 incoming freshman class). The 25th and 75th percentiles of the incoming class at UT-Austin were 1120 and 1370" count as "mediocre" at all! If being in the top 12% of your school makes you mediocre, then many of us here would probably be considered retarded.
I also fail to see how getting rid of race considerations in regards to admissions makes her a racist. I do not agree with them either, and I am a member of the minority myself. I think that this issue will be one that - like politics and religion - people really won't budge on their opinions no matter how well-reasoned the opposing side would be.
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