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Old 07-12-2008, 02:01 AM
EE-BO EE-BO is offline
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True, but it does not confer on him the right to condescend to other Greek chapters- both those with higher social standing and those which do not meet his personal criteria for what makes a good chapter. He likes to attack the fratties and also the chapters which go their own way (i.e. the composite thread) and so that makes him look like he endorses the "fratty poser" way of things- which totally blows.

Kedzman may well have done good work for his particular chapter, but his posts here do not reflect well on his philosophy and general motives. For his chapter he may well be a great credit, but here he is less than impressive.

At the end of the day, the value he offers his own chapter is what counts- but here on GC he has stuck his neck out and needs to take his lumps.
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:34 AM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by EE-BO View Post
At the end of the day, the value he offers his own chapter is what counts- but here on GC he has stuck his neck out and needs to take his lumps.
He's offered quite a bit on both a national and local scale. I have nothing but respect for what he's done.

I think what he says is essentially correct, in that different recruiting techniques yield different results, but I think, as I've said before that the reason kids join fraternities is to have fun, not to "share values." The old and the new are integrated when you find kids who want to have fun, but find the sort of values-based fraternity to be appealing.

We aren't Bible-study groups with houses. We're fraternities. We are what we are.

I don't think he ever sold the KU chapter as his own as the "best." He simply acknowledged that colonies are a different sort of experience which many would find more fulfilling than being in an established chapter (and many would regret their decision to join a colony as well). I don't really see anything wrong with that.

I'm sure that he knows from his personal relationships with collegians that if you condescend, you don't get anywhere fast. He's new to GC, so he's entitled to a mulligan.
SN -SINCE 1869-
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Old 07-12-2008, 01:36 PM
nate2512 nate2512 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
This is one of the most foolish posts ever...

Entreprenureal men seek fresh opportunities. Therefore, Sigma Nu will pull some dynamic leaders right out of the gate. Sigma Nu dominated at Kansas for decades as one of the top fraternities. They have a huge pipeline of legacies that will want to join. They have a great chapter house. They have unlimited alumni resources. Sigma Nu is one of the strongest and most highly regarded national organizations. Sigma Nu has a four-year ethical leadership development program (LEAD) which will be very attractive to mature, ambitious men.

Suggesting "they are going to suck for 5-10 years" is foolishness. I can cite plenty of examples where that thinking is just plain wrong. Check our, for example...
As to call everyone in organizations that do not adhere to that type of structure....immature and non-ambitious?

Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
You've lost all credibility. FSU Pikes is one of the highest-achieving fraternities in the nation. Check out this page for proof...
They've won 6 consecutive Smyth awards from their National Fraternity and you say they are not "top-tier" at FSU? They've won the all sports trophy all but one year since their 2001 recolonization and you say they are not "top-tier". Are you nuts?

My chapter at Northern Illinois is a top 5 out of 15 fraternities in just 4 semesters after our recolonization. Two of the last three student government presidents have been a Sigma Nu. We've been #1 or #2 in GPA each of the last 4 semesters. We are the 5th largest fraternity in just 4 semesters. To say that a colony "is going to suck for a pretty good period of time" is just silly to say. It's simply not true.

I'm going to chalk up your perceptions to the likelihood that you are young and have limited perspective and experience with Greek affairs. I've been Greek for over 20 years, worked for my national organization, traveled and been a chapter advisor for over a decade and was the primary alumnus spearheading our recolonization effort.

We've got new chapters all over the country that are reaching critical mass and becoming top chapters on their respective campuses.
Whose perception, you may be the fifth largest but that doesn't mean your top 5.

And to say that because we are young we don't understand things is hugely insulting.

Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
Name-calling is an easy way to identify who has won and who has lost the arguement. Perhaps you can explain such things to a "yankee" like me. Looks like the Pikes at FSU pretty much dominate in all measurable areas. Where am I wrong?

Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
FSUfiji, crackerbarrel, elephant walk & Phigam -

You are all clearly in the same line of thinking. I am in a different camp. We'll just have to disagree on this one.

I am disappointed in your thinking because it's too easy and common. Most Greeks join for a lot of the wrong reasons - they just wanna party. They miss the point that all of our national organizations were founded 100+ years ago for virtuous and nobel reasons. Somewhere along the way, the culture changed, values changed and so did fraternities.

National organizations offer their top awards to high-achieving chapters that live out their founding principles. This takes a lot of hard work, dedication, delayed gratification, discipline, accountability & more. The fact that you don't value such awards or the organizations who earn them is an indictment on your character.

Throwing big parties and breaking the rules isn't unique or difficult. Rather, it is common and easy. Thus, you are members of common, lethargic organizations. You are like dinosaurs marching toward extinction and you don't even realize it. You laugh at hard work and embrace folly.

I guess we simply have different values.
Doesn't sound like a wrong reason to me? I have parents, I don't need another set of them.

Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.

You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing.

The primary problem isn't that pledges are driving your drunk, underaged brothers around. The problem begins with the drunk underaged brothers. The fact that there are pledges driving them around is secondary, not primary. Trying to cover up risk management issues with a "pledge driving program" doesn't eliminate the risk management issue.

Poking holes in your logic is so easy it's silly. For some reason, you think you are the wise one - perhaps because you have some equally naive followers supporting the decades of bad traditions you have bought into.
Once again, you're just landsliding off-base.

Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post
I have to compliment you on such a polite, gracious post. You make a lot of good points and I agree with you. That being said, some 18-19 year old students are mature beyond their years. A lot of this his to do with the way their parents raised them and/or how tightly they hold onto their faith and live it out in their daily lives.

Our organization tends to attract young men who are a little more mature for their age than your typical 18 year old. It's hard to explain it, but you can feel the difference when you walk into a room with 50 Sigma Nu's from NIU vs. the other fraternities. As an alumnus, I've been to football tailgate parties and other large group events where fraternities are hanging out in packs. Many of the other fraternities make a wild spectacle of themselves can appear to be real bafoons. That is attractive to an 18 year old that wants to be a wild ass. The SN crowd tends to be a cut above in their social demeanor. They still have a great time and attract the top ladies - they just keep a cooler head about them.

I guess my point is, while most 18 year old boys are not going to be attracted to my post - that's OK. The 10% of the 18 year olds that are mature beyond their years and looking for something a little more than just a social fraternity experience is going to really be attracted to Sigma Nu. In an environment where everyone is throwing parties and recruiting to a social scene, we tend to take things to the next level to differentiate ourselves. There is a market for it. We attract leaders. We develop leaders. We have more of our members in positions of leadership on campus and in the community than any other fraternity. We have a 21 year old City Alderman and a 19 year old County Board Member. Two of the last 3 student government presidents have been Sigma Nus. They are #1 or #2 in GPA each of the last 4 semesters. On the social scene, on a campus with 15 fraternities and only 8 sororities, SN consistently pairs with the top 4-5 sororities.

Thanks again for the gracious post. You are more careful and considerate than I in the way you express yourself. I tend to come across a bit abrupt and sometimes abrassive in my text posts. I'm much better in person!
Once again, if your aren't sig nu, you're immature.

Originally Posted by Kedzman View Post

I am disappointed to see you perpetuating "the Iron Triangle" or the "3-B's" of recruitment. Just because that alumnus is influential doesn't mean he is right. We are called to a higher standard than that.

I've been involved in Greek life since 1987 and seen a lot. The 1980's were indeed "the big '80's" where fraternities surged in numbers, in part, due to the popularity of movies like Animal House (1977) and others to come. Until about 1986 or so, there were no rules. Fraternity parties were wide open. As a result, there were many alcohol related deaths, property damage to our historic homes and injuries - and of course, law suits. Risk management rules imposed by National organizations were the result of unchecked liability. Law suits financially threatened the existence of our National organizations.

Risk management heated up in the 1990's. Huge numbers of chapters around the nation were shut down. Other chapter went by way of the dinosaur and were victims of their own actions. The mid to late 1990's on my campus were devastating. At our chapter, for example, I knew it was game over when I saw our "good kids" leaving and the knuckleheads staying. Parties and drugs were increasing. Chapter involvement, GPA and recruitment numbers were decreasing. That was the beginning of the end. You cannot recruit quality TO the organization if you do not have quality IN the organization. Alumni stepped in a quitely pulled the charter. Massive drug busts happened at Delta Upsilon and Sigma Chi in 1999 - two of our historically best chapters. There was a strong "anti-establishment" attitude in the mid to late 1990's influenced by the "grunge" culture with young people - kind of similar to the decline of Greek life in the early to mid 1970's.

In 2005 and beyond, it seems many organizations are becoming a lot more responsible. New groups like ours are starting out on the right foot. Other organizations are trying hard to turn the tide of the culture because of the risk and poor results they have gotten.

I'll challenge you to make a slight paradigm shift. Instead of leading with Beer, Babes and Bucks - try leading with all of the attributes a top fraternity offers by way of leadership development and personal growth. What will happen is the best of the best will be attracted to you. From that, the bucks will come from higher manpower. The Babes will beat a path to your door because quality women desire to be with quality men. The Beer is simply a constant on a college campus and within fraternity culture. Everyone knows it's there. You don't need to flaunt it or promote it. Pushing parties only hurts you - it cannot help you. What I mean is, a party-centric recruitment message can scare away top students who become concerned that they will not be able to be high-achievers if the culture is too party oriented. Conversely, the party-only guys will find a home at your fraternity and they may bring little else to your chapter and put you at risk.

Again, if you lead with personal development, the bucks and babes will follow. The beer will always be there.
And a lot more boring.

But not if you aren't 21. Which gives you 1 year to fully enjoy your fraternity, which by then you are probably near burnt out on.

I've collected all this to show that kedzman has a very narrow view of greeks and what they should be and if you fit into that, he'll shun you and start putting you down.

To sum up his threads, unless you obey the rules, win all kinds of awards, and join sigma nu, then you aren't a true mature man.

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Old 07-12-2008, 05:06 PM
PhiGam PhiGam is offline
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:21 PM
banditone banditone is offline
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:10 PM
PhiGam PhiGam is offline
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Delt has flex fridays here, they grease each other up and play volleyball behind their house.
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Old 08-11-2008, 01:51 AM
Entrepreneur Entrepreneur is offline
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As an old fart, I found this thread pretty amusing. I pledged right after Animal House came out (gave the actives lots of ideas for the pledges). Last year my daughter pledged what appears to be the top sorority at her school. This year has brought a lot of the old Greek memories back as she's told me about her experience. Given some of the changes, I've wondered if I would still recognize Greek life. Reading a few of the posts, maybe I would. Couple of thoughts...

Hazing - The definition of hazing today seems pretty ridiculous. Chasing pledges around a muddy field in pickups, like one fraternity did at my college is over the top and a welcome removal. Yet, the Greek system has lost something when it's hazing to make pledgeship challenging, to make initiation something to be earned and an achievement of pride, and to make a pledge class pull together and unite.

Numbers - Every college has a house that blanket bids. Their numbers swell. It doesn't make for a top house. It makes for a big club.

Colonies - It is tough for colonies to climb to the top. Usually there's a handful of really good guys in a colony who are transfers, legacies, or are just attracted to the challenge. But the colony needs numbers, so they use a 98.6 qualification. That's not bad for a colony. It's just part of the process. As someone posted, colonies suck for awhile. Yet, two good pledge classes, back to back, can completely change the pecking order.

National - This seems exactly the same as always. No one cared about national when I was in school. When national sent spies to visit, we played pretend, but couldn't wait for them to leave. The chapters of my fraternity at other schools that national seemed to hold up as shining examples were filled with mullets. We made fun of them at the leadership meetings. National is politically correct. The best locals are not.

Who's The Best - My daughter pledged the top sorority at her school last year. How do I know? I don't since I'm not going to school there. I only know they won IM. They had the top grades. They won Greek Week. Their president was Panhellenic woman of the year or something like that. By all objective measures, her sorority is the best.

Yet, when I was in college, the sorority I thought was top of the heap didn't win IM and didn't have the best grades. Yet, everyone knew they were the best. It was highly subjective, but everyone knew. It was the same with fraternities. Guys on the ground know who's good. No one at a distance can know.

Since I'm not "on the ground" at my daughter's school, I can't make the subjective assessment about my daughter's sorority (it's the same sorority I thought was best when I was in school BTW). I can only look at objective measures. Even then, I'm biased. Any house my daughter's in must be the best. I think the same applies to this thread.

Motivation - What are guys looking for when they pledge? Come on, these are 18 year old kids. They're shallow and narcissistic. They want the house with the greatest parties, that attracts the best looking coeds, that has the coolest guys, and that they fit in with. The last is most compelling. People tend pledge fraternities and sororities where the feel at home. In the end, the best house for an individual may not be the best house on campus and vice versa.
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