Placing Blame

[LeslieAGD]

Originally posted by AOIIalum
If any PNM leaves a party and feels bad, something is wrong. That should never happen. In addition, no PNM should even feel as if it happened. Period.

Christin, I would love to know where you rushed because in *my experience* no one feels comfortable, happy, and welcome in every, single party they attend. I totally understand where you are coming from...and in a perfect system, every PNM would be treated equally. However, in Recruitment-land, where sisters only meet girls for a few minutes in a thirty minute or less block of time, it is difficult and, yes oftentimes, unfair. In the TBSG case, I do think the situation was probably not the best recruiting...but I was not there so it is not fair for me to say, "XZY has bad rush tactics." That's all I'm saying!

For the same reason we warn the PNMs to be cautious in their posts, we should also be respectful to people reading these threads who come from the sororities and campuses in question.

[AOIIalum]

Originally posted by LeslieAGD


Christin, I would love to know where you rushed because in *my experience* no one feels comfortable, happy, and welcome in

As I've posted before, I was a COB pledge. I never got to have the formal experience as a PNM, but got it at the chapter and Panhellenic level as a collegian. I've also had it as an alumna adviser.

I don't think that I mentioned anything about "comfortable and happy" in my post--but I do believe that all PNMs should be made to feel welcome. Someone else posted about "common courtesy." That's it exactly, it's a common courtesy to make those PNMs invited to your home feel welcome.

There's no question that PNMs may not feel comfortable or particularly happy. Especially for PNMs on those campuses that require you to attend your max number of parties for which you have invites whether or not you want to return. In that situation, I think that the PNM should be courteous during her party in return. It happens, but when we read of that happening in recruitment threads the general response is along the lines of 'keep an open mind' and so forth, generally supportive and never any disparaging comments tend to follow such postings.

For the same reason we warn the PNMs to be cautious in their posts, we should also be respectful to people reading these threads who come from the sororities and campuses in question.

There's no question about that. I honestly think most of us do that, I really do. But those who read the threads from those campuses should show the same respect in response.

Christin

[SigKapSundevil]

I also feel like TBSG was very polite in not mentioning the sorority. I'm sure she was hurt and upset, and could have told us, but she didn't. She has every right to tell us how she felt at the party and how upset she was, we are the ones who called that chapter bad rushers, she never said it. All she did was tell us she was upset. She was genuinely looking forward to that party and she was let down. I think that we should be there for her and not criticize her, especially on her thread.

[pbear19]

Very well said SigKapSundevil! I second all of it!

[doubleblue&gold]

I don't disagree, PNM should be treated with courtesy. But just as all parties and all groups are different, so are those going thru recruitment. Two people with the exact same experience can have two completely different perceptions of it---one may hate it, one may love it. You may want to skydive---I never will! It is unfortunate that someone has a bad experience but....it happens. I have a firm belief that what should happen eventually does. And...it does no good to bash either side when you don't have all the facts. Just as you give consideration to the PNM, so should you to the group.

[doubleblue&gold]

I don't disagree, PNM should be treated with courtesy. But just as all parties and all groups are different, so are those going thru recruitment. Two people with the exact same experience can have two completely different perceptions of it---one may hate it, one may love it. You may want to skydive---I never will! It is unfortunate that someone has a bad experience but....it happens. I have a firm belief that what should happen eventually does. And...it does no good to bash either side when you don't have all the facts. Just as you give consideration to the PNM, so should you to the group.

[Aphigal]

Originally posted by kddani
I think that one sister for 2 PNMs isn't good rushing unless it is utterly, totally unavoidable. But with most schools having at least a semi-formal rush, numbers are more controlled and it's not like a house suddenly gets 100 pnm's storming in and only has 40 sisters to rush.

I do not know how many recruitments on how many different campuses you have attended but in my experience this happens on a regular basis, typically to the bottom rushing chapter (but that is not the only reason! It also happens when recruitment falls at a strange time members have classes, it's the Jewish high holy days in Sept, seniors decide they don't really have to come back for recruitment...)

It isn't the ideal but please don't make a blanket statement that the chapter is in the wrong. We all do not know the real reason why she was double-rushed or why anyone else is for that matter. Making an assumption that the other people she saw were sisters and did not have anyone else to rush is just that an assumption. They could have been alums, they could have been from another chapter being room fillers for a small chapter, or a million other reasons.

I thinks Leslie's whole point was, in my opinion, about assumptions and working off half the information.

[kddani]

Yes, I do understand Leslie's point and agree with it even, and the thread started heading in a different direction, which isn't a bad thing.

Yes we don't know the situation. Never said that we did. In my previous posts i've been careful to say that we DON'T know, but my opinion was if this WAS the truth.

Almost everyone on here agrees that 2 PNMs for one rushee is not a good rushing situation, especially when one of them dominates the entire conversation. And when there are extra sisters standing around.... And when there's no bumping involved!

These practices go against everything a rush manual will tell you, anything that you learn from your national consultants, rush chairs, etc.

I'm entitled to have the opinion (notice that the statement you quoted started with "i think"!) to say that this is bad rushing. Never did I say that I definately believed that the chapter did this. I said that IF this was this case, then it was bad rushing. No i wasn't there, yes situations could've arisen, but from all the information we have been given, this is my OPINION. And it's not an unpopular one at that, almost everyone has agreed.

And when i said about numbers being controlled, in MOST rush situations you do know how many PNMs are coming to a party, and you should do your best to prepare to rush them properly.

"I think" and "most" are not words that belong in a blanket statement, I did not issue a blanket statement.

I never said that these girls were bad people, or evil, or anything else like that. BAD RUSHING is not a cardinal sin (well, some national officers might disagree). I'm not damning these girls to hell. I'm commenting that this was not a good display of rushing skills, IF IT DID HAPPEN. Anyone who DOES think this was good rushing needs to check a rush manual, because anytime a rushee leaves feeling like TBSG did, something was done wrong! See Killarney's posts on the other thread.

[LeslieAGD]

Originally posted by Aphigal
I thinks Leslie's whole point was, in my opinion, about assumptions and working off half the information.

Yes, it was Aphigal, thank you. My point was also to take the discussion/argument off of TBSG's thread and hopefully open the conversation up as a generalization...but apparently that didn't work.

I think doubleblue&gold made two important statements:
1) (Every) PNM should be treated with courtesy.
2) Just as you give consideration to the PNM, so should you to the group.

[DWAlphaGam]

Originally posted by kddani

And when i said about numbers being controlled, in MOST rush situations you do know how many PNMs are coming to a party, and you should do your best to prepare to rush them properly.

I haven't read the TBSG thread yet, but I just wanted to throw in my $.02 about double-rushing here. My chapter is ususally working with 18-20 sisters at the most going into formal recruitment. During the first and second round, there are usually about around 25-30 girls per party. In this case, having 1-on-1 contact with a pmn is impossible. We've had even rounds where it was 3 pmns on 1 sister, which was completely out of our control. It's nothing against these girls and it's really hard to try to carry a conversation with 2 or 3 people at once and try to form an opinion about each individually, but sometimes that's the only way you can do it. We would be thrilled if we had enough sisters so that we didn't have to do this "bad rushing," as you put it, but in our situation and in many small chapters' situations, there is no way around it.

Ok, I'm off to read the TBSG thread now to see what the setup for this thread was...

[Lady Pi Phi]

I don't want to call anyone a bad rusher, and of course I don't have both sides of the story. But I think the point being made here about "bad rushing tactics" is that, if doubling up can be avoided then there is no reason to do it. If there were girls just hanging around doing nothing, well there is no need for that. Of course there will be situatuions where doubling-up is unavoidable. Instead of getting all in a huff about it. We should just drop it. TBSG never said anything about these girls being abd rushers. She just told us how upset she was, and what her situation from hger perspective was. We will most likely never get the other side of the story. Hopefully if mistakes were made we have all learned something from it.

[ZTAngel]

I don't think that double rushing is "bad rushing" on the part of the chapter. Double rushing is extremely common at UCF where we have close to one thousand girls going through recruitment. With nine sororities on campus that contain 100-180 girls in the chapter, double rushing will occur. Not the chapter's fault but maybe panhellenic can add more parties and divide the PNM's up among that. There is a lot of work that goes into double rushing. If a chapter fails to keep both PNM's involved in the conversation, then that is the fault of the chapter. If the chapter has to double rush, that is not the fault of the chapter.

[33girl]

I don't think anyone has criticized a situation like DWAlphaGam described - if you have a smaller chapter at a big rush school it's going to happen. There are methods to make it work. Plus you do need to see at some point how the PNM's interact with EACH OTHER - if you have 30 sisters and take a 30 person pledge class, it's essential that the pledges get along with each other since they are immediately going to be half of the sorority.

The thing that made people upset in the TBSG thread specifically was a situation (in her eyes) where there were available sisters there and PNM's were being ignored. That's like when I go into McDonald's and the clerk takes her time alphabetizing the ketchup packets before she waits on me. Just as the customer is your first priority, that PNM should be your first priority. Yes you will occasionally get in a jam with a gabby PNM or a nervous sister - but at a school like Truman that has lots of girls going through I am assuming all chapters employ rush workshops over the summer. Those should be used to make sure everyone in the chapter knows the correct tactics to handle situations like these.

[DWAlphaGam]

Ok, I read the TBSG thread and if what she was saying about people standing around was true, then yes, that wasn't a good move on the sorority's part, so sorry if I was a little testy before. Keep in mind, however, that this is a one-sided story and that a pmn has no idea what goes on behind the scenes of recruitment on the members' side. I'm sure there are things that pmns are confused about when they are going through recruitment that make perfect sense to the sisters (I was a COB, so I'm just taking a guess at that). It is quite possible that the sisters she saw had a specific task to do, or that they were waiting to bump, etc. So basically, I agree with Leslie, we can't jump down a chapter's throat after hearing one side of the story. Yes, we can sympathize with the pmn and we can hope that she eventually finds her place, but sometimes things happen for reasons that we don't know about.

[LeslieAGD]

Originally posted by 33girl
The thing that made people upset in the TBSG thread specifically was a situation (in her eyes) where there were available sisters there and PNM's were being ignored.

Again, in *her eyes* they may have just been standing around, but we don't know what they were doing. Maybe they were alums, maybe they were floaters, maybe they were preparing for a different activity. Too many maybes to make an accurate judgement call about the recruitment skills of that chapter.