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  #16  
Old 09-07-2017, 04:50 PM
Kevin Kevin is online now
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If you're going to war, best to pick a battleground you can win on. Private universities can absolutely forbid students from belonging to Greek organizations, political parties or drum circles. They can completely regulate student behavior because the students' association with that university is optional and voluntary.

This Penn State situation might present a better opportunity for FSL organizations to establish some legal precedent as to what public schools can and can't get away with. Case law surrounding free association isn't as deep as you'd want it to be before initiating litigation though. I can think of arguments in favor the school which aren't horrible arguments..
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  #17  
Old 09-07-2017, 05:12 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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As I said in a previous post, Penn State is going to feel really silly when the numbers of non-Greek local social orgs go through the roof and a few more are created - and freshmen join them right away.
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  #18  
Old 09-07-2017, 05:49 PM
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Penn State has a few levers by which they might exert control. They might collaborate with municipal government to zone Greek housing out of existence, i.e., require orgs to be in good standing with the University to be able to operate the sort of facilities FSL houses operate as. They might even try to limit students' ability to join organizations by penalizing them for doing so. There are arguments which can be made, i.e., that the school is regulating the Greek Community because it has a duty to promote the health, safety and welfare of its students and that there is real data showing that alcohol abuse, sexual assault, etc., go along with FSL organizations.

No one has had that fight in court of which I am aware, and that's because neither side is sure of the outcome.
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  #19  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:19 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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That's what I said - if they place all these restrictions on fraternities and sororities non-Greek "social groups" (recognized and underground) will spring up like weeds.
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  #20  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:37 PM
GreekOne GreekOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
That's what I said - if they place all these restrictions on fraternities and sororities non-Greek "social groups" (recognized and underground) will spring up like weeds.
And those that already exist will see a surge in interest. From my understanding, the Business Fraternities at Penn State are enjoying a historically high number of candidates for membership this semester since freshmen have this option but don't have IFC/Panhel options.

The behaviors that the PSU administration is trying to suppress with their sanctions will not disappear. They have just moved to a new venue.
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  #21  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:51 PM
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It'll be interesting to see how business honors fraternities will handle hazing and drug use investigations. I'm sure they have lots of experience with that. They should be fine.
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  #22  
Old 11-18-2017, 03:38 PM
PhilTau PhilTau is offline
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Ran across this article about Harvard's move to implement its new final clubs policy. Typically Harvard:

https://harvardmagazine.com/2017/11/...nal-clubs-vote
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  #23  
Old 11-18-2017, 05:53 PM
aephi alum aephi alum is offline
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^ What 33girl said. So you'll end up with a bunch of "social groups" that are not only not regulated by the university (aside from the university saying "If we find out you're a member we're going to (e.g.) expel you"), but also not regulated by any national office. Oh, yes, I'm sure that'll work out reeeeeeally well. </sarcasm>

On a different note, I noticed from that article that Harvard's chapter of AEPi has done the same thing. I wonder if they've managed to attract Jewish female new members as a result? I'm not finding any information on how their fall recruitment went. To the best of my knowledge, there are no historically Jewish sororities at Harvard - AEPhi has never had a chapter there.
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  #24  
Old 11-19-2017, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
As I said in a previous post, Penn State is going to feel really silly when the numbers of non-Greek local social orgs go through the roof and a few more are created - and freshmen join them right away.
Like Trilogy, the renegade ex-Tri Delta chapter.
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  #25  
Old 11-19-2017, 11:22 AM
naraht naraht is offline
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It'll be interesting to see how business honors fraternities will handle hazing and drug use investigations. I'm sure they have lots of experience with that. They should be fine.
Two questions:
1) Where do we get that the Business Honoraries would get included in this?
2) I'm curious as to the most significant hazing charge leveled against such a group?
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  #26  
Old 11-20-2017, 09:03 AM
GreekOne GreekOne is offline
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Originally Posted by naraht View Post
Two questions:
1) Where do we get that the Business Honoraries would get included in this?
2) I'm curious as to the most significant hazing charge leveled against such a group?
It happens...
https://akpsi.org/virginia-tech-chap...ed-for-hazing/
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  #27  
Old 11-21-2017, 04:23 AM
naraht naraht is offline
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Thanx
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  #28  
Old 11-25-2017, 12:59 PM
JonInKC JonInKC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
If you're going to war, best to pick a battleground you can win on. Private universities can absolutely forbid students from belonging to Greek organizations, political parties or drum circles. They can completely regulate student behavior because the students' association with that university is optional and voluntary.

This Penn State situation might present a better opportunity for FSL organizations to establish some legal precedent as to what public schools can and can't get away with. Case law surrounding free association isn't as deep as you'd want it to be before initiating litigation though. I can think of arguments in favor the school which aren't horrible arguments..
Can you explain what you mean by this part? Isn't a student's association with any university optional and voluntary?
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  #29  
Old 11-25-2017, 01:48 PM
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Poorly worded on my part. The point is that private universities can absolutely regulate any student behavior because they are not state run and subject to Constitutional limitations such as being forbidden from punishing speech, allowing students to freely associate, etc. A private university can absolutely wipe out FSL organizations and no one can challenge them. They can punish students for associating with private off campus groups as well.

FSL organizations at public schools can of course lose recognition, but if that chapter wants to operate in an off campus capacity, there is nothing the school can do to stop them. The public university cannot punish students for their off campus associations. FSL organizations at public universities always have a nuclear option at their disposal. They can simply ignore the university knowing that the worst the school can do is withdraw university recognition. If that action is meaningless to the national organization or if the chapter doesn't care what the national organization says (they can always go local), the worst that can happen, again, is loss of recognition.

Loss of recognition from the university may mean loss of the ability to utilize campus facilities in the group's name and/or participation in structured FSL events. There may be some local consequences such as the loss of the ability to use the chapter facility due to potential FSL zoning issues which affect some municipalities.
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  #30  
Old 11-29-2017, 04:46 PM
CaliAggie CaliAggie is offline
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I wonder if the issue is complicated by the fact that students are essentially paying "customers" of these private universities and may have some exercisable consumer rights to push back against schools' absolute right of regulation.

My thoughts either way are that Greeks should seek to work with their universities, but knowing full well that Greek Life has a lot of leverage. Schools need Greek orgs because at the most fundamental level we enhance the college & learning experience, and in turn play a role in attracting & retaining students, giving back (at a higher rate than non-Greeks) after graduation, bolstering athletics revenue, providing housing and what not. Having an organized Greek System with an IFC, etc. also mitigates underground university-affiliated groups from going way off the rails and putting the school at legal or publicity risk. All the stuff you all know already.

But I bring it up because it seems that more chapters are eager to play hardball and disaffiliate from a college (or nationals) and going rogue. At least it seems like an idea that has been gaining popularity. While it may seem like an attractive option -- no rules! self-governance! maximum fun! -- the potential downside can be so risky. Kevin mentioned several, like zoning changes, facilities use and participation in sanctioned events. Another is how local law enforcement could come down on rogue GLO's.

Years ago, a family friend has a son who was a member of a fraternity that went its own way. As I understand it things were great at first but after complaints began piling up the police went after the group as a criminal gang (locals were also trying to get them prosecuted as a cult but that didn't work) that resulted in incarceration and attempted seizure of assets from the fraternity. Yes, this may be a bit of an extreme case and the degree of enforcement varies by state and municipality but point being that having a university there to take the brunt of these sorts of things can be a real benefit. Not that I need to tell any of you this, but I wish chapters would understand that the structure and processes are a double edged sword for both enforcement and their protection. Going rogue should really be a Hail Mary last option.
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