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  #31  
Old 06-30-2020, 01:20 PM
SWTXBelle SWTXBelle is offline
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My concern has been when percentages are bandied about - if 20% of a student population is a minority, that doesn't necessarily mean that 20% of NPC group members should/could be minority. We need to acknowledge that they may have options in NPHC and multi-cultural Greek organizations, while making sure that NPC groups are open to them as well.

I like Sen's idea of an across the board introduction to all groups for students. Even if they aren't interested in joining, it would be good for students to know about the other groups. I know that my alma mater has a kind of open house for freshmen, but it is all campus groups, not just Greeks. I will note that when I suggested including NPHC sororities in our sorority information session for Murray State we were politely refused by the NPHC groups. That was over 10 years ago, so certainly a great deal has changed.
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  #32  
Old 06-30-2020, 02:59 PM
PersistentDST PersistentDST is online now
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I think the diversity conversation is very layered. There are more reasons than just having options.

Itís also about having an honest and deep look at current NPC membership. Is everyone ready for inclusiveness? Organizations can post about support for diversity and social justice all they want, but still have sisters wearing blackface on Snapchat or proudly attend a ďMexicanĒ party, where actives are dresses as stereotypes. Iíve even seen troubling comments from alumnae in the past few weeks. Those things hurt the reputations of all of the NPC and damage the things you are working towards. As a POC PNM (or a parent), I may second guess participation in recruitment when these things happen yearly at different schools across the country. Itís not that we generalize, we know itís not everyone, but no one wants to land in the system where it happens. No one wants to be down the hall from the ďsistersĒ that smile in your face and then say the n-word on social media. No one wants to complain to their chapter leadership about micro-aggressions, only for nothing to be done about it. No one wants to be the token.

Itís not just about parents wanting their daughters in the NPHC because of culture and tradition, itís also about safe spaces. Will they be supported and have a positive sorority experience in the NPC? Iíd rather have my loved ones be GDIís than potentially have them deal with discrimination.

At this point, the inclusiveness focus should really be on two groups:

1. The diverse actives and alumnae who fell in love with your sororities and may have some perspectives about what can be done for your membership, because they are your sisters. Before I would speak to anyone, Iíd give them the opportunity to talk about their experiences and share ideas.
2. The diverse PNMís who are committed to the recruitment process. The goal should be to see, understand and respect each persons differences (just say no to ďcolorblindnessď), but to treat each PNM with the same kindness, consideration and expectations.

While I appreciate the concerns about poaching from the NPHC, itís a non-issue for us. However, clear and present are the POC PNMís on message boards asking if they should consider recruitment. Those are the young ladies that need the inclusion commitment from your organizations.
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  #33  
Old 06-30-2020, 04:06 PM
SWTXBelle SWTXBelle is offline
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NPC Responses

Apparently the idea behind removing legacy courtesies is inclusion; I don't think that is the best way to go about it, but would like to see what else NPC groups are doing. Here is a link to Gamma Phi's response (They also had a roundtable with sisters of color - no link to that) :

https://www.gammaphibeta.org/AntiRacismResources
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  #34  
Old 06-30-2020, 04:21 PM
PersistentDST PersistentDST is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle View Post
My concern has been when percentages are bandied about - if 20% of a student population is a minority, that doesn't necessarily mean that 20% of NPC group members should/could be minority. We need to acknowledge that they may have options in NPHC and multi-cultural Greek organizations, while making sure that NPC groups are open to them as well.

I like Sen's idea of an across the board introduction to all groups for students. Even if they aren't interested in joining, it would be good for students to know about the other groups. I know that my alma mater has a kind of open house for freshmen, but it is all campus groups, not just Greeks. I will note that when I suggested including NPHC sororities in our sorority information session for Murray State we were politely refused by the NPHC groups. That was over 10 years ago, so certainly a great deal has changed.
At my alma mater they currently do a large scale program introducing the fraternities and sororities on campus. Each chapter does an intro and some background information, along with a step, hop, stroll, chant or a song. Afterwards there is a fair. Iím not sure if the program is successful, but Greek Life has been growing rapidly there regardless.

The university I work at also does a similar program every semester and Iíve observed. It looks like an awkward clash of cultures. Most of the POC go straight to the NPHC tables. They wait for their chapter of interest to stroll, say hi to their friends in other organizations and then head out. The NPC/NIC orgs awkwardly watched the strolls and then went back to talking about recruitment with the mostly white PNMís. I know the formatting will be changed to something more structured and programmatic moving forward, but I still wonder how much itíll help diversity.

I think the NPC should also think about inclusion outside of recruitment activities. Perhaps chapters make a commitment to meeting, collaborating and supporting diverse organizations on their campus. Not a mandate...but a genuine commitment. Build trust with the campus community outside of the NPC/NIC. Itís about creating the culture. Once others see and feel that commitment, you may be surprised who approaches about joining. Sometimes itís about learning to be comfortable in those spaces and meeting the diverse PNMís where they are.
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  #35  
Old 06-30-2020, 04:31 PM
andthen andthen is offline
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Originally Posted by PersistentDST View Post
I think the diversity conversation is very layered. There are more reasons than just having options.

Itís also about having an honest and deep look at current NPC membership. Is everyone ready for inclusiveness? Organizations can post about support for diversity and social justice all they want, but still have sisters wearing blackface on Snapchat or proudly attend a ďMexicanĒ party, where actives are dresses as stereotypes. Iíve even seen troubling comments from alumnae in the past few weeks. Those things hurt the reputations of all of the NPC and damage the things you are working towards. As a POC PNM (or a parent), I may second guess participation in recruitment when these things happen yearly at different schools across the country. Itís not that we generalize, we know itís not everyone, but no one wants to land in the system where it happens. No one wants to be down the hall from the ďsistersĒ that smile in your face and then say the n-word on social media. No one wants to complain to their chapter leadership about micro-aggressions, only for nothing to be done about it. No one wants to be the token.

Itís not just about parents wanting their daughters in the NPHC because of culture and tradition, itís also about safe spaces. Will they be supported and have a positive sorority experience in the NPC? Iíd rather have my loved ones be GDIís than potentially have them deal with discrimination.

At this point, the inclusiveness focus should really be on two groups:

1. The diverse actives and alumnae who fell in love with your sororities and may have some perspectives about what can be done for your membership, because they are your sisters. Before I would speak to anyone, Iíd give them the opportunity to talk about their experiences and share ideas.
2. The diverse PNMís who are committed to the recruitment process. The goal should be to see, understand and respect each persons differences (just say no to ďcolorblindnessď), but to treat each PNM with the same kindness, consideration and expectations.

While I appreciate the concerns about poaching from the NPHC, itís a non-issue for us. However, clear and present are the POC PNMís on message boards asking if they should consider recruitment. Those are the young ladies that need the inclusion commitment from your organizations.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, this is just very well said. While I'm not African American, I am a person of color and a daughter of an immigrant parent, who didn't have the opportunity to attend college. Thus didn't have the privilege of being a legacy.

I've been following this thread, and I have been doing a lot of thinking. Granted I am a member of an NPC group who might have had a potential legacy (my step-daughter). I know for some the timing of this change might seem a bit off.

For me being in college and not being a legacy provided a lot of additional stress going through rush/recruitment (showing my age). I think at many schools there is tent talk even in the best of worlds. Hearing this and that from others about not being a legacy might hurt you etc. In the end things worked out but, in my personal opinion dropping the legacy policy is a start to providing a more stable playing field.

Its a long time in coming not only to perhaps alleviate a barrier but more and more people are attending colleges and by virtue of this become involved in greek life. As more and more individuals become members and then have kids of their own there is bound to be a proliferation of legacies, as compared to the early part of the 20th century where not a lot of women were attending college. Simply put regardless of the reason I just don't see the practice as sustainable long term.

Yes when there is such a big shift there is going to be some who are all for it and those against it. But honestly groups need to evolve and really need to look within their own membership beyond those who have remained actively involved past college, what will help sustain and help these organizations. After college as some have noted there is a bit of attrition from NPC group members. Why? I feel as though this is the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. Even if your legacy decides to join your sisterhood still doesn't mean that mom/daughter will continue involvement with ABC after DD graduates. Even within my own geographic area outside of the alumnae group I'm involved with there are loads of sisters who live in the area and choose not to be involved? Again why? Often times when I am out volunteering somewhere I will often see NPHC members or even MCG's represented and they represent their organizations proudly. For whatever reason at least where I'm at this doesn't seem to be a big thing or as much of a priority.

All this to say I feel like groups should be seeking out members who really want to be involved and participate not just for their collegiate years but beyond. Look I understand that sometimes life happens to all of us as adults, illness, kids, aging parents etc. But at least from my vantage point there is a small yet vocal portion of the population that feel as though ending legacies will signal doom and gloom. But frankly and take it from someone who doesn't adapt well to change, we do need to evolve. We do need to at least crack the door open to provide opportunities to be more inclusive especially at the campus level.

For those of you who raised daughters sharing your experience with your sorority and the joys of it that is wonderful. And no one is diminishing that or telling you to not share those stories. But at the same time, your kids need to find their own path to which ever group suits them the best. So they might not share in the ABC sisterhood with you, but instead decide hey I'm more of an XYZ, that's still something to be celebrated because your child is exercising healthy independence.

If you get to the bottom of this my apologies for the long rant, but this topic has been weighing on me for a while.
  #36  
Old 06-30-2020, 05:11 PM
Cheerio Cheerio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle View Post
Apparently the idea behind removing legacy courtesies is inclusion; I don't think that is the best way to go about it, but would like to see what else NPC groups are doing. Here is a link to Gamma Phi's response (They also had a roundtable with sisters of color - no link to that) :

https://www.gammaphibeta.org/AntiRacismResources
What a well-thought-out approach GPhiB is taking in response to the subjects at hand.
  #37  
Old 06-30-2020, 07:28 PM
navane navane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle View Post
They also had a roundtable with sisters of color - no link to that
Ugh....I missed that presentation and I was hoping that IHQ would post a link to the video so that I could still watch it.
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  #38  
Old 06-30-2020, 08:30 PM
SWTXBelle SWTXBelle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navane View Post
Ugh....I missed that presentation and I was hoping that IHQ would post a link to the video so that I could still watch it.
I think they said there might be more.
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  #39  
Old 06-30-2020, 08:35 PM
joliebelle joliebelle is offline
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Originally Posted by navane View Post
Ugh....I missed that presentation and I was hoping that IHQ would post a link to the video so that I could still watch it.
As someone who attended the round table, I am glad that it was not recorded. There were a lot of deeply personal conversations that were shared by BIPOC that I would not want publicized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle View Post
I think they said there might be more.
There will be! I thought they emailed the second one, but can't seem to find it in my email anymore. Definitely connect with someone from the Belonging & Inclusion Task Force
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  #40  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:04 PM
thetalady thetalady is offline
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Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post
This is extremely antecdotal and is missing the big picture. And who here is arguing that a chapter should be forced to take anyone and everyone?

Again, not sure where we're ripping up the very fabric of our organizations and destroying decades of history by eliminating our legacy policies.
But ripping up the legacy policies is just the start. This is just the very beginning of the dramatic changes to come and come quickly. Hold on to your seat. I think we will all be rather nonplussed by purple hair, when inclusion at ANY price becomes the goal of our organizations. And it is certainly coming.
  #41  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:10 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Originally Posted by thetalady View Post
But ripping up the legacy policies is just the start. This is just the very beginning of the dramatic changes to come and come quickly. Hold on to your seat. I think we will all be rather nonplussed by purple hair, when inclusion at ANY price becomes the goal of our organizations. And it is certainly coming.
What she said!
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  #42  
Old 06-30-2020, 11:31 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
I think that these groups were trying to figure out when to dump it on their members--99.9% of whom were not given a say or a vote in this--and then voila! All this horrible stuff happened in this country and by eliminating the policy at this time, these groups could virtue signal!
And I'm sure that's why these alumnae are upset... because of all the virtue signaling...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PersistentDST View Post
I think the diversity conversation is very layered. There are more reasons than just having options.

It’s also about having an honest and deep look at current NPC membership. Is everyone ready for inclusiveness? Organizations can post about support for diversity and social justice all they want, but still have sisters wearing blackface on Snapchat or proudly attend a “Mexican” party, where actives are dresses as stereotypes. I’ve even seen troubling comments from alumnae in the past few weeks. Those things hurt the reputations of all of the NPC and damage the things you are working towards. As a POC PNM (or a parent), I may second guess participation in recruitment when these things happen yearly at different schools across the country. It’s not that we generalize, we know it’s not everyone, but no one wants to land in the system where it happens. No one wants to be down the hall from the “sisters” that smile in your face and then say the n-word on social media. No one wants to complain to their chapter leadership about micro-aggressions, only for nothing to be done about it. No one wants to be the token.

It’s not just about parents wanting their daughters in the NPHC because of culture and tradition, it’s also about safe spaces. Will they be supported and have a positive sorority experience in the NPC? I’d rather have my loved ones be GDI’s than potentially have them deal with discrimination.

At this point, the inclusiveness focus should really be on two groups:

1. The diverse actives and alumnae who fell in love with your sororities and may have some perspectives about what can be done for your membership, because they are your sisters. Before I would speak to anyone, I’d give them the opportunity to talk about their experiences and share ideas.
2. The diverse PNM’s who are committed to the recruitment process. The goal should be to see, understand and respect each persons differences (just say no to “colorblindness“), but to treat each PNM with the same kindness, consideration and expectations.

While I appreciate the concerns about poaching from the NPHC, it’s a non-issue for us. However, clear and present are the POC PNM’s on message boards asking if they should consider recruitment. Those are the young ladies that need the inclusion commitment from your organizations.
All of this. And quite frankly, when AST posted their "messages of inclusion" on Instagram, which read much like other NPC organizations' messages, there were a lot of members who demanded more. There were sisters who were flat out upset. It was disheartening to read at first, but I agree that more needs to be done to ensure our members and chapters are not only more inclusive, but aren't flat out racist. We can't just post a message of inclusion and think that's enough. We need to take action.

I attended a workshop a couple weeks ago which included both collegians and alumnae of all NPC organizations, and the first part of it was a question-and-answer portion where black women in the NPC were asked questions about their recruitment experiences. They provided answers for everyone to hear ahead of going into smaller breakout groups for more personal discussions. One of the women when asked, "What should chapters do to be more inclusive," answered: "Just like white women, we're not all the same. Make all women be seen and heard for who they are. But understand that black women are probably putting the most on the line by showing up for NPC recruitment." This really speaks to everything you said above, PersistentDST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PersistentDST View Post
I think the NPC should also think about inclusion outside of recruitment activities. Perhaps chapters make a commitment to meeting, collaborating and supporting diverse organizations on their campus. Not a mandate...but a genuine commitment. Build trust with the campus community outside of the NPC/NIC. It’s about creating the culture. Once others see and feel that commitment, you may be surprised who approaches about joining. Sometimes it’s about learning to be comfortable in those spaces and meeting the diverse PNM’s where they are.
Another question asked in the workshop was: What were some of your fears entering recruitment? One woman made mention of glancing around during the first round of recruitment and realizing that no one else really looked like her. She believed she would have to work twice as hard as everyone else to receive a bid. Perhaps if she saw - even outside of an official recruitment event - the NPC sororities "mixing" with other more diverse organizations, that would have made that woman feel more comfortable. How many women of color out there didn't have that same level of confidence, even if minimal, to even try? How many walked away or thought NPC wasn't for them?

I'm sure the white NPC members here were already nervous and freaked out enough when they were a PNM. Add on that extra level of anxiety, panic, and feeling of being excluded and then wonder if you would have even tried, especially if you had no personal connection to any NPC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andthen View Post
Its a long time in coming not only to perhaps alleviate a barrier but more and more people are attending colleges and by virtue of this become involved in greek life. As more and more individuals become members and then have kids of their own there is bound to be a proliferation of legacies, as compared to the early part of the 20th century where not a lot of women were attending college. Simply put regardless of the reason I just don't see the practice as sustainable long term.
Exactly this.

Quote:
Yes when there is such a big shift there is going to be some who are all for it and those against it. But honestly groups need to evolve and really need to look within their own membership beyond those who have remained actively involved past college, what will help sustain and help these organizations. After college as some have noted there is a bit of attrition from NPC group members. Why? I feel as though this is the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. Even if your legacy decides to join your sisterhood still doesn't mean that mom/daughter will continue involvement with ABC after DD graduates. Even within my own geographic area outside of the alumnae group I'm involved with there are loads of sisters who live in the area and choose not to be involved? Again why? Often times when I am out volunteering somewhere I will often see NPHC members or even MCG's represented and they represent their organizations proudly. For whatever reason at least where I'm at this doesn't seem to be a big thing or as much of a priority.

All this to say I feel like groups should be seeking out members who really want to be involved and participate not just for their collegiate years but beyond. Look I understand that sometimes life happens to all of us as adults, illness, kids, aging parents etc. But at least from my vantage point there is a small yet vocal portion of the population that feel as though ending legacies will signal doom and gloom. But frankly and take it from someone who doesn't adapt well to change, we do need to evolve. We do need to at least crack the door open to provide opportunities to be more inclusive especially at the campus level.

For those of you who raised daughters sharing your experience with your sorority and the joys of it that is wonderful. And no one is diminishing that or telling you to not share those stories. But at the same time, your kids need to find their own path to which ever group suits them the best. So they might not share in the ABC sisterhood with you, but instead decide hey I'm more of an XYZ, that's still something to be celebrated because your child is exercising healthy independence.
This this this. We have much bigger fish to fry, and us NPC groups have struggled to make the 'Not just four years... but for life!' more than just a slogan. Where is the disconnect? Why do PNMs and members only value the collegiate experience and dismiss alumnae membership? There are now so many ways for sisters to stay involved after graduation, but there is a huge dropoff. What messaging are we not getting across? Are we pledging legacies simply because they're related to a sister and not because they're going to truly advance our organizations beyond a few years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thetalady View Post
But ripping up the legacy policies is just the start. This is just the very beginning of the dramatic changes to come and come quickly. Hold on to your seat. I think we will all be rather nonplussed by purple hair, when inclusion at ANY price becomes the goal of our organizations. And it is certainly coming.
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. All I know is that organizations have talked for years about getting rid of their legacy policies and something finally occurred to make them act. It always seems that NPC orgs won't make any huge, meaningful change until their backs are against the wall.

Question: can anyone tell me - outside of diversity or upset alumnae or doom and gloom and "the end of sororities as we know them" - what is the actual problem in getting rid of the legacy policies? Are they sustainable? As andthen mentioned above, at what point - if we're not already there - do so many women go to college and join sororities that we have too many legacies and the entire system gets watered down and becomes obsolete? When does it become - again, if it isn't already - too much of a burden on chapters to push through all of the legacies signing up for recruitment?
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Last edited by ASTalumna06; 06-30-2020 at 11:36 PM.
  #43  
Old 07-01-2020, 12:47 AM
navane navane is offline
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Originally Posted by joliebelle View Post
As someone who attended the round table, I am glad that it was not recorded. There were a lot of deeply personal conversations that were shared by BIPOC that I would not want publicized.


There will be! I thought they emailed the second one, but can't seem to find it in my email anymore. Definitely connect with someone from the Belonging & Inclusion Task Force

Oh, ok...thank you, that makes sense. I'm sorry I missed it. I actually know two of the women who were on the panel and I suppose I could always have a conversation directly with them.
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  #44  
Old 07-01-2020, 01:08 AM
Cheerio Cheerio is offline
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Relax. The idea of changing a legacy policy isn't a Unanimous Agreement decree from the NPC. Some NPC groups chose to change the way they recruit their legacies. For these groups legacies are still legacies, only now recruited in a different manner from the old norm. Only time will tell if these groups have made a solid decision


On another subject, IMHO every PNM ought to want to cherish, enjoy and grow with the sisters and ideals of any group into which she may be invited. Some here on GC seem very afraid there will be Fall 2020 new members feeling a strong need to eventually and intentionally tear apart NPC sorority rituals/constitutions/friendships/education standards/etc.. If you are one who feels this fear, show these potential destroyers the grace, beauty, wisdom and love your sisterhood truly possesses. Sharing the truth with others allows others to share their true selves with you.
  #45  
Old 07-01-2020, 08:22 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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Some here on GC seem very afraid there will be Fall 2020 new members feeling a strong need to eventually and intentionally tear apart NPC sorority rituals/constitutions/friendships/education standards/etc.. If you are one who feels this fear, show these potential destroyers the grace, beauty, wisdom and love your sisterhood truly possesses. Sharing the truth with others allows others to share their true selves with you.
We have already seen them in recent years. I have heard about women who have even tried to upset rush parties. Some stay quiet until they join. From what I've been told, I doubt these people would be impressed by our grace, beauty, and wisdom.
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