The Murder of Trayvon Martin

[DrPhil]

Cough cough...it is all 33girl's fault.

Yes, there are women serial killers. Black serial killers, Hispanic serial killers (Richard Ramirez finally died)...but even when controlling for these exceptions and the amount of cold cases around the world, the profile remains white men of a certain age. Serial killing isn't the only crime for which white men fit the profile.

I now see these white men jogging around my neighborhood in the dark and want to ask them to explain their whereabouts. Those of us who live in communities know that we find more discreet and respectful ways to know who comes in and out of our neighborhoods. We're watching you...all of you...not just "those Black people."


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ETA: I respect the legal system, even if I disagree with the outcome, and this is one of the reasons why we have appeals and civil suits.

But...yaaaaaaaaaaaay!!! Zimmerman may get his gun back if he requests it.

[moe.ron]

Federal Trial Against Zimmerman Won’t End Well

When in 1992 a California jury acquitted the four officers who beat Rodney King, the result was a race riot of a kind not seen since the late 1960s -- followed by a federal civil-rights prosecution that convicted two of the officers. The acquittal of George Zimmerman for killing Trayvon Martin hasn’t produced rioting, but it has spawned a growing demand, led by the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, for a federal trial to re-charge Zimmerman with violating Martin’s civil rights.

The laws have changed since 1992 to make bringing such a prosecution easier than it would once have been. Yet the likelihood of getting a conviction would be extremely small -- and instead of placating people who feel aggrieved by the first trial, another failed prosecution might make race relations in America worse, not better.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-end-well.html

I honestly think Tayvon's family should sue George Zimmerman. George has already indicated he want to sue NBC for defamation of character. I think Tayvon should sue triple the amount Zimmerman is suing NBC for. Hit em where it hurt the most, his pocket.

[PhoenixAzul]

EDIT: Because one shouldn't political post while recovering from hypoglycemia. Sorry, need to fully bake the idea.

[Kevin]

Considering the statutes and the evidence, criminal charges were ridiculous. One of the state's own witnesses, Jonathan Good testified that it appeared the black combatant was on top and winning the confrontation.

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/peop...immerman-case/

I never recalled seeing any media coverage about that bit of testimony. Strange. They then called a voice recognition expert who testified that it couldn't be done digitally, then the parents and relatives of both Zimmerman and Martin testified that the screams were from their own relatives. The state should never miss an opportunity to call a grieving mother as a fact witness. That was a pretty low blow.

Anyhow, had this not been a high profile case with the world watching and the potentiality of riots, it should have been a directed verdict (the judge should have reached a finding that the state hadn't met its burden) at the halfway point of the trial.

The last witness the defense put up was very damaging to the state's case and really tarnished the credibility of the state's experts. Dr. Vincent J.M. Di Maio is a nationally recognized forensics expert.

http://www.local10.com/news/george-z...z/-/index.html

He testified how the injuries were consistent with what Zimmerman had been saying all along. Does all of that prove Zimmerman innocent? Nope. But it does give rise to lots and lots of reasonable doubt.

The law is what it is. People shouldn't be angry at Zimmerman, they should be upset with the NRA and its supporters. This case is a prime example of prosecutorial misconduct. Maybe the public spanking will slow Florida's prosecutors down in prosecuting these sorts of things just because the news stations are making a big deal out of it. The Obama administration could have used this as an opportunity to lead this country away from some of its ridiculous gun laws. Instead, we're hand wringing over racial stuff? In the trial, there was never a bit of evidence to suggest race had anything to do with anything that night, but that's all some folks want to see.

For many years, most jurisdictions recognized a duty to retreat before the use of deadly force would be justified. Maybe instead of the current conversation, let's talk some about that. At least that can be fixed by just passing a statute.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Considering the statutes and the evidence, criminal charges were ridiculous. One of the state's own witnesses, Jonathan Good testified that it appeared the black combatant was on top and winning the confrontation.

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/peop...immerman-case/

I never recalled seeing any media coverage about that bit of testimony. Strange. They then called a voice recognition expert who testified that it couldn't be done digitally, then the parents and relatives of both Zimmerman and Martin testified that the screams were from their own relatives. The state should never miss an opportunity to call a grieving mother as a fact witness. That was a pretty low blow.

Anyhow, had this not been a high profile case with the world watching and the potentiality of riots, it should have been a directed verdict (the judge should have reached a finding that the state hadn't met its burden) at the halfway point of the trial.

The last witness the defense put up was very damaging to the state's case and really tarnished the credibility of the state's experts. Dr. Vincent J.M. Di Maio is a nationally recognized forensics expert.

http://www.local10.com/news/george-z...z/-/index.html

He testified how the injuries were consistent with what Zimmerman had been saying all along. Does all of that prove Zimmerman innocent? Nope. But it does give rise to lots and lots of reasonable doubt.

The law is what it is. People shouldn't be angry at Zimmerman, they should be upset with the NRA and its supporters. This case is a prime example of prosecutorial misconduct. Maybe the public spanking will slow Florida's prosecutors down in prosecuting these sorts of things just because the news stations are making a big deal out of it. The Obama administration could have used this as an opportunity to lead this country away from some of its ridiculous gun laws. Instead, we're hand wringing over racial stuff? In the trial, there was never a bit of evidence to suggest race had anything to do with anything that night, but that's all some folks want to see.

For many years, most jurisdictions recognized a duty to retreat before the use of deadly force would be justified. Maybe instead of the current conversation, let's talk some about that. At least that can be fixed by just passing a statute.

I agree that they should change this statute, but I don't agree that race was irrelevant that day. I don't think this has anything to do with Obama. If he had tried to jump in and made a big deal about changing gun laws, gun rights people would have gone bonkers. You can't do that after EVERY gun tragedy, and I don't see him wasting political clout to change the law in one state. This is a LOCAL issue. They want to focus on the civil rights aspect which is there. Hopefully the climate will change in Talahassee in a few years for lawmakers to get rid of a bad law. That shouldn't stop a family from seeking justice denied by that law.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

People precipitate their own victimization all of the time. Martin precipitated his own victimization.

How did Trayvon Martin precipitate his own victimization?

[Munchkin03]

I blame Florida for all of this. First for that dumb law, and second for having a shitty prosecutor. The burden of proof was on the state and they dropped the ball.

[badgeguy]

One word: Taser.

I wish more people would carry these instead of guns and maybe this whole discussion would be moot.

MHO
BG

[*winter*]

For real on the Taser comment. Non-lethal is the way to go. I volunteered to be Tasered during our military training and trust me ...if you Taser someone, they are going to leave you the hell alone!

[AOII Angel]

Amen.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I blame Florida for all of this.

Its becoming clear to me that Florida is not safe for kids and manatees.

[DrPhil]

Re: Tasers

Tasers have their own issues and there is increased research on the longterm impact of tasing. We had a GC discussion about that last year. Sure, it is better than shooting and especially shooting to kill. Sure, it is a good self-defense method if self-defense (or law enforcement and military compliance) is truly the issue.

***********************

Originally Posted by TonyB06

How did Trayvon Martin precipitate his own victimization?

Hello, TonyB06

The following is based on how dark and dreary it is where I live on a rainy February 26th 7:00pm evening--even with street lights. Someone let me know whether Sanford, Florida has more daylight during that time. Daylight savings 2012 was March 11.

The post that you quoted explains that victim precipitation is not victim blame so there is no need to defend Trayvon Martin or his hoodie (I see white men walking and jogging in dark clothing or hoodies all of the time. People walk around in the evening all of the time, as well.). Victim precipitation is just one component of the study of offending and victimization patterns. Men tend not to be told about victim precipitation (despite having a higher rate of victimization for all crimes except rape and sexual assault. The victimization of men is even greater approximately 15-40 age range.). However, women are the ones who tend to be told not to walk around in the evening, not to park cars in empty parking lots, not to walk with their eyes down rather than looking at their surroundings, etc.

Many parents of Black and Hispanic young men tell their sons to be careful for fear of racial-gender profiling. Most of these parents do not also tell these young Black and Hispanic men about victim precipitation. Some of us believe Trayvon Martin was the victim and not the perpetrator, just as some people believe Zimmerman was the victim and not the perpetrator. Race and gender were among the factors in their interaction but there were also environmental factors. I doubt that interaction would have gone down like that if it was not dark and rainy outside--even if Martin wore his hoodie and seemed to fit the burglarer profile. Let's say it was 2:00pm instead of 7:06pm. It probably would've been perceived differently by both Martin and Zimmerman and there probably would have been a different outcome.

Victim precipitation is also not to be confused with excessive fear of crime and paranoia. All things in moderation. This is about being observant and smart so that if you walk around late at night, for example, you do things to buffer the fact that it is late at night (i.e., looking people in the eye, not being alone, keeping a phone, pepper spray, car keys in your hand, etc.), thus reducing the risk of victimization. You are still precipitating (the potential for) victimization but you are hopefully reducing the likelihood of victimization. Women around the world tend to be told this all of the time but men around the world tend not to be told this. I have devoted my (non-Greekchat) time to telling this to men, especially Black and Hispanic men in the 15-40 age range. Reduce the machismo, billy badass routine, masculinity, and "quien es mas macho" and acknowledge risks for potential victimization.

[MaryPoppins]

Florida is pure crazy, I know because I lived there in the late 80's and it only seems worse now that I read about it. My saying Florida is crazy should make you think because I live in Mississippi which is a whole other level.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Hello, TonyB06

The following is based on how dark and dreary it is where I live on a rainy February 26th 7:00pm evening--even with street lights. Someone let me know whether Sanford, Florida has more daylight during that time. Daylight savings 2012 was March 11.

The post that you quoted explains that victim precipitation is not victim blame so there is no need to defend Trayvon Martin or his hoodie (I see white men walking and jogging in dark clothing or hoodies all of the time. People walk around in the evening all of the time, as well.). Victim precipitation is just one component of the study of offending and victimization patterns. Men tend not to be told about victim precipitation (despite having a higher rate of victimization for all crimes except rape and sexual assault. The victimization of men is even greater approximately 15-40 age range.). However, women are the ones who tend to be told not to walk around in the evening, not to park cars in empty parking lots, not to walk with their eyes down rather than looking at their surroundings, etc.

Many parents of Black and Hispanic young men tell their sons to be careful for fear of racial-gender profiling. Most of these parents do not also tell these young Black and Hispanic men about victim precipitation. Some of us believe Trayvon Martin was the victim and not the perpetrator, just as some people believe Zimmerman was the victim and not the perpetrator. Race and gender were among the factors in their interaction but there were also environmental factors. I doubt that interaction would have gone down like that if it was not dark and rainy outside--even if Martin wore his hoodie and seemed to fit the burglarer profile. Let's say it was 2:00pm instead of 7:06pm. It probably would've been perceived differently by both Martin and Zimmerman and there probably would have been a different outcome.

Victim precipitation is also not to be confused with excessive fear of crime and paranoia. All things in moderation. This is about being observant and smart so that if you walk around late at night, for example, you do things to buffer the fact that it is late at night (i.e., looking people in the eye, not being alone, keeping a phone, pepper spray, car keys in your hand, etc.), thus reducing the risk of victimization. You are still precipitating (the potential for) victimization but you are hopefully reducing the likelihood of victimization. Women around the world tend to be told this all of the time but men around the world tend not to be told this. I have devoted my (non-Greekchat) time to telling this to men, especially Black and Hispanic men in the 15-40 age range. Reduce the machismo, billy badass routine, masculinity, and "quien es mas macho" and acknowledge risks for potential victimization.

Hi, DrPhil,
I’m probably missing (or just flat out rejecting) the differentiation between victim precipitation and blaming.

As an AfAm man 30+ years older than Trayvon Martin, and I understand carefulness and watchfullness. However, at 17, I’m pretty sure TM was just balling out, full of vitality and expectation. Not likely thinking a run to the store at halftime of a basketball game might cost him his life. And certainly, that lack of watchfulness shouldn’t have done so. Precipitation sounds a little too close to "blaming" to me.

I’d have expected George Zimmerman to have shown the higher thinking. He set all this in motion.

And then came Saturday night. The public got “not guilty.” GZ got his gun back and rest of us got try and make sense of this judicial atrocity.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

I’d have expected George Zimmerman to have shown the higher thinking. He set all this in motion.

And then came Saturday night. The public got “not guilty.” GZ got his gun back and rest of us got try and make sense of this judicial atrocity.

For some reason, people want to forget this, and focus on the scuffle between the two.