Philadelphia abortion doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Here's the thing - I did a research paper on this in 2001. The numbers could have changed some by now (I kinda doubt it), but statistically 97% of abortions are performed as post-conception birth control, 2% rape/incest, and 1% heath reason (mother or child) - and I had several sources on those statistics. It wasn't one pro-life periodical that I got that from. At the time I did the research, it was estimated that 1/3 of all pregnancies were ending in abortion. Seemed high to me, but again, several sources.


I am sympathetic to the rape/incest/medical issues, but the numbers say that it's not what's happening. If it weren't for a fear of innocent (male) victims, I would be willing to say that abortion should be legal only for danger to the mother and legitimate rape/incest cases where charges are filed. Like I said, I know that's not fesable, because it opens up a willing sexual partner to a later rape charge.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's not killing babies. And whatever medical term you want to give it at whatever stage of development, it's still human.

And this is why this issue will likely never get the attention it deserves because we want to believe the statistics and that rape and incest aren't far more common than women report. There are a ton of reasons why women don't report these things especially when the abuser is a friend or family member but it doesn't mean it's not happening and at an alarming rate. Since working with women in these situations, I'm convinced that these issues are far far under-reported, especially when it comes to date rape, incest, and spousal rape (yes, being married does not mean you're body isn't yours and you don't have the right to say no). This abuse is especially not reported because the women/girls have a connection with the abuser and may even love them and not want to send them to jail. Either way, if we continue to only look at statistics and blame victims (as we love to do when it comes to sexual abuse issues), these issues will only get worse. Get a group of women (especially poor women) in a room where they feel safe to open up and you'd be amazed at the stories that come to light - stories that have never been shared with anyone.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Why is parenthood considered the only "noble" choice, even over adoption? Like, bragging that you took the toughest punishment. I don't know if I'm clearly explaining myself. I can't stand it when people who do choose parenthood get up on a high horse by saying they "took responsibility" for their actions, as if that's the only responsible course of action. AF, you were lucky you had the resources to care for a child, even though it probably seemed tough.

It's irresponsible to bring a child into the world that you can't care for. According to NARAL Pro-Choice America, 1.3 million abortions are performed each year, and about 75% of those are performed because the woman can't afford a/another child. Oh, but there's always adoption. What would 980,000 additional wards of the state every year do to our economy (17.6 million at any given time after 18+ years of such a policy)? Yet, the same people who block access to reproductive choice are often the ones begging to cut government spending.

I agree this case is horrific. I hope it serves as an example of what happens when access to reproductive choice is blocked for those who need it most.

You are right - it's not the only "noble" choice. There was another girl in my class who got pregnant her sophomore year of college, and she chose adoption. She found a family that was a great match for her. I applaud her for that. It was responsible. I still say abortion is NOT.

By your own statistics, 75% of abortions are post-conception birth control. That is way too high. Especially the "another" child part. It's not like they can claim ignorance of the birds and the bees on that one.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

You are right - it's not the only "noble" choice. There was another girl in my class who got pregnant her sophomore year of college, and she chose adoption. She found a family that was a great match for her. I applaud her for that. It was responsible. I still say abortion is NOT.

By your own statistics, 75% of abortions are post-conception birth control. That is way too high. Especially the "another" child part. It's not like they can claim ignorance of the birds and the bees on that one.

Not everyone has help from parents, a chance at a college degree, and a partner who is willing to help, you know.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Not everyone has help from parents, a chance at a college degree, and a partner who is willing to help, you know.

Not everyone should be having unprotected sex, either.

If you don't have the means, support, etc to handle the consequences in a RESPONSIBLE manner, don't do the action.*

*This obviously excludes rape.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Not everyone should be having unprotected sex, either.

If you don't have the means, support, etc to handle the consequences in a RESPONSIBLE manner, don't do the action.*

*This obviously excludes rape.

I completely agree. But that means we need to make it easier to get contraception for every social class and remove the stigma from asking for these contraceptive methods. That means all types, including the pill and Plan B. The goal IS to reduce the need for abortion by responsible contraceptive use, but funding for contraceptives and family planning groups are constantly under attack. It's not a simple issue or one sided. Screaming that people just need to be responsible but not doing things to help them be responsible is pointless.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

By your own statistics, 75% of abortions are post-conception birth control. That is way too high.

I thought your statistics said only 3% of abortions met the rape/incest/medical threats to the mother's life criteria? I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. I said that of the women that have abortions, 75% say they can't afford parenthood. There are more that use abortion as "post-conception birth control" (whether or not they tried other methods) but have abortions for other reasons. Financial reasons are subjective. I'm sure that not all of those 75% are toeing the bankruptcy line.

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Especially the "another" child part. It's not like they can claim ignorance of the birds and the bees on that one.

I put "another" to be all inclusive. We're not only talking about teenagers and unmarried women. Just because a couple is married and has wanted children they can currently (but perhaps barely) afford doesn't mean they wouldn't seek an abortion if an unintended pregnancy were to occur. It is likely that such a couple would have less access to birth control pills or an IUD and the doctors visits required to continue such a prescription.

[AOII Angel]

I call into question that 97% as specious. There aren't just 3 reasons to have an abortion. If those are the only reasons given, maybe that would be the break down, but that displays a bias in the study from the onset. What about birth control failure? Not all people who haven't been raped or are seeking an abortion for a reason other than for their health were practicing unprotected sex. It doesn't sound as atrocious to report that these responsible people had birth control failure and chose abortion, so lumping them in with post- conception birth control is more efficacious for the cause. What about women who decide to reduce the number of fetuses after in vitro to protect the life of their other fetuses? That doesn't fit neatly into any of these three boxes but happens more frequently than you might think. You also haven't taken into account the many abortions that are performed because of fetal anomalies that are incompatible with life. These parents desperately want children but make the decision to terminate their pregnancies to prevent their children from suffering. Where does that fit? It doesn't fall into the maternal risk category. Your numbers are flawed.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

It's amazing we're still even having these types of conversations today, when legalized abortion has been such a huge boon to upper-middle-class white conservative America in terms of limiting things like crime and poverty-stricken social classes.

It's kind of a forest/trees thing on some level.

Exactly.

The only government healthcare I would like is free abortions.

That would cut down on alot of undesirables breaking into my car and stealing stuff.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I call into question that 97% as specious. There aren't just 3 reasons to have an abortion. If those are the only reasons given, maybe that would be the break down, but that displays a bias in the study from the onset. What about birth control failure? Not all people who haven't been raped or are seeking an abortion for a reason other than for their health were practicing unprotected sex. It doesn't sound as atrocious to report that these responsible people had birth control failure and chose abortion, so lumping them in with post- conception birth control is more efficacious for the cause. What about women who decide to reduce the number of fetuses after in vitro to protect the life of their other fetuses? That doesn't fit neatly into any of these three boxes but happens more frequently than you might think. You also haven't taken into account the many abortions that are performed because of fetal anomalies that are incompatible with life. These parents desperately want children but make the decision to terminate their pregnancies to prevent their children from suffering. Where does that fit? It doesn't fall into the maternal risk category. Your numbers are flawed.

Post conception birth control is still post conception birth control, regardless of whether a form of pre conception birth control was used.

The 1% was Health Reasons - mother OR child.


violetpretty - your "arguments" seem to be supporting my case, rather than refuting it. Not sure f that's your intention or not. I was using the stat more generous to the pro choicers to really say that any post conception birth control abortions are too many.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Exactly.

The only government healthcare I would like is free abortions.

That would cut down on alot of undesirables breaking into my car and stealing stuff.

Wow.

Really.

And to think you could have been aborted too.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

That would cut down on alot of undesirables breaking into my car and stealing stuff.

Because undesirables are the only people who get abortions?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Because undesirables are the only people who get abortions?

Right?

[honeychile]

I know that derailing a thread is a fine art, but people either feel that abortion is okay, not okay, or only okay in certain situations. I'll long ago quit trying to sway people to my point of view, but I have the right to have one.

The doctor in this thread didn't just perform abortions, he killed viable children after they were born. The argument is whether or not an unwanted living child should be allowed to be killed, or that a woman desiring an abortion should be recklessly allowed to die, or that body parts should be kept afterwards.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Post conception birth control is still post conception birth control, regardless of whether a form of pre conception birth control was used.

The 1% was Health Reasons - mother OR child.


violetpretty - your "arguments" seem to be supporting my case, rather than refuting it. Not sure f that's your intention or not. I was using the stat more generous to the pro choicers to really say that any post conception birth control abortions are too many.

Any abortion is post conception birth control. It is preventing the birth of a baby, just like a condom, just like getting your tubes tied, just like all forms of birth control. The goal is to not have a baby.

The "reason" for post conception birth control may vary, but I am not understanding your path of logic here. If I have a heart disease that will likely result in my death if I carry a pregnancy full term and my husband gets a vasectomy so that we don't have to worry about that but something doesn't work and I get pregnant anyway and abort that fetus to save my own life, it is STILL post conception birth control, isn't it?

I know more people who conceived babies while on some form of birth control than I do those who haven't.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by honeychile

The doctor in this thread didn't just perform abortions, he killed viable children after they were born. The argument is whether or not an unwanted living child should be allowed to be killed, or that a woman desiring an abortion should be recklessly allowed to die, or that body parts should be kept afterwards.

Right. This guy is definitely a monster and more than likely he had a lot more victims than just those mentioned in the reports.